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Juggernaut - 26 Mar 2015
Total Posts: 121

TheAirHockeyGuy said:
Joe is suggesting I delete the threads of other people Wil. I'm not going to do that.

No, he suggested you delete your own posts. Members of your future organization are already misusing their administrative powers on these forums, so why the sudden change of heart? :)

corydzbinski - 01 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 148

The AHPA tournaments are much less attractive to me because there doesn't seem to be an established rating system. The first thing I would do when creating a new organization is lay out a clear ranking/rating system. Besides loving the game, my ranking is the most important thing. I don't see anything like that on the AHPA website?

- 01 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 658

You can count on the upcoming USAA tournament in Houston having all its ducks in a row especially regarding its rankings/ratings system. Along with that you can count on a nice turnout with the number of players that show up for competition. Rest assured you will not have to worry about these issues and others there/then when the tournament soon kicks off in Texas.

fupersly - 01 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 231

For the record, Cory, the ratings as they exist now are known as the "Mitic Ratings" and not the "USAA ratings" for a good reason, which is because they do not belong to the USAA. Yes, they were developed by players within the USAA (with notable input from other USAA members), but as long as games are played by USAA rules, there's no reason to invalidate or not recognize those games, even if they don't take place within a USAA-sanctioned event.

One thing still a bit up in the air would be the k-values for matches in an AHPA tournament, but I see no material reason to have that be any different as compared to a USAA-sanctioned event. Others may disagree with me on this point, but again, the ratings are explicitly not USAA ratings. In fact, here on AHW, they are currently titled "AirHockeyWorld" ratings. I imagine some would take that to mean that AHW owns the ratings, but that wouldn't be correct - those are just the ratings that AHW has maintained using the Mitic Ratings calculation criteria with the (presumably full and accurate) data that has been entered into AHW and maintained by Travis, Goran, Q and others.

carolina phil - 01 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 1084

To be clearer still:

The United States Air Hockey Association recognizes the Mitic Ratings as official World Ratings. We are pleased that AH groups all over the world utilize them.

The United States Air Hockey Association also recognizes The World Rankings as the offical World Rankings of Air Hockey Players. We are pleased that AH groups all over the world utilize them, too.

The USAA AIR HOCKEY WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP IN HOUSTON this Fall will determine new WORLD RANKINGS and also will produce new MITIC RATINGS.

In the meantime, all AH players can play challenge matches and challenges sets to move up the ladders of both The World Rankings and the Mitic Ratings.

Both are of crucial importance in the Air Hockey world!

Phil Arnold
Founder
USAA

TheAirHockeyGuy - 02 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 472

corydzbinski said:

All AHPA events will be included in the ratings displayed on airhockeyworld.com. An AHPA World Ranking will also be added to the "Rankings" page. As it stands, we are not changing any values within the Mitic Rating system at this time and we see no immediate need to do so. Thank you for your feedback Cory.

Chris Lee
Co-Founder, CEO
Air Hockey Players Association (AHPA)

Juggernaut - 02 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 121

TheAirHockeyGuy said:

Thanks so much for answering questions from your potential customers.

Will the USAA Rankings remain on airhockeyworld.com after it becomes an AHPA-owned entity?

TheAirHockeyGuy - 02 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 472

Juggernaut said:

TheAirHockeyGuy said:

Thanks so much for answering questions from your potential customers.

Will the USAA Rankings remain on airhockeyworld.com after it becomes an AHPA-owned entity?

Wil-

At this time we see no reason to remove the USAA Rankings from the site. As we have stated before, we want people to participate in events sanctioned by both organizations and we recognize and support the efforts of the USAA.

Chris Lee
Co-Founder, CEO
Air Hockey Players Association (AHPA)

- 02 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 658

Note: "At this time we see no reason to remove the USAA rankings"
It won't surprise me if Chris and AHPA keep the rankings of the USAA on this site for at least a while as they'll attempt to give off the impression there's some affiliation of sorts. It should be clear that AHPA is a competing organization with interests in over taking the USAA and its player base for its own personal profit. If that means using the USAA in the meantime, so be it. Most of our board members see right through it. Question: After the AHPA made its own website, why such a race to buy Airhockeyworld.com and have complete take over and control of it? Why not let it be? With the recent issues of post manipulation by an AHPA moderator it surely will be heavily controlled now and not to benefit the USAA. You're not interested in both organizations thriving. Rest assured that a new site for the USAA will be likely created as a result.
Oh, and after visiting the AHPA site and seeing your code of conduct stated there for all the members to abide by, maybe you and your founders can take some of your own advice, since you're trying to appeal to players, because much of what you guys speak and say at tournaments is rude, gossiping, and hate filled talk. It again does nothing good for the tournament or the sport. You should be held accountable as well.

tableman - 02 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 690

The issue of "post manipulation by an AHPA moderator" was explained to me (since it was my post) to my satisfaction that it was an innocent mistake because moderators can accidentally delete a part of someone else's original post if they hit the wrong button.

That doesn't explain or excuse the creation of locked threads which are then kept locked or unlocked, by another AHPA moderator.

There's no question that AHPA is a splinter group coming out of USAA, due to AHPA's founders being dissatisfied with USAA. It's not like some aliens landed with completely different rules, rankings, ratings, sanctioned tables. Or some group is competing on Namco Pacman Smash tables and wants to have a Worlds on them.

That's why I fought hard, as did others in USAA, to keep the AHPA founders unified with USAA. I stated before, and still believe, they could have done almost everything they aim to do, including have a dues-paying player association, without conflicting with USAA and trying to become a rival sanctioning and rule-making body.

So why did AHPA decide it needed to set itself in rivalry to USAA as a sanctioning, rule-making body? I have heard no compelling answers to that question. It seems to me the answer is that the AHPA founders want full control of everything, including rules, procedures, etc., and that's not possible for any two people within the democratic structure of the USAA board.

ajflanagan - 02 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 509

TheAirHockeyGuy said:

As it stands, we are not changing any values within the Mitic Rating system at this time and we see no immediate need to do so. Thank you for your feedback Cory.

Good thing, because you really CAN'T make any changes to the Mitic Rating System... you don't own it.

The real question is for Goran, since it is his system to manage. Will the AHAPAPA tournament in Colorado have the same or similar k-value as a USAA sanctioned World Championship? I'm sure there are arguments for both sides on this one. My position would be to give it a k-value of a state/regional event since it will likely fall in line with all the requirements for a state/regional USAA sanctioned event. Since it's not a USAA santioned World Championship and as a result might not have the quantity of top level players that a USAA sanctioned event would have, it could be argued that the overall "weight" of the tournament is less than that of a USAA World Championship.

ajflanagan - 02 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 509

The AHAHPAPAP has the following listed in their resume section...

WEEKLY TOURNAMENT MANAGEMENT
1996: End Zone Sports Bar
1996 - 1998: Hitchhikers Family Pool Hall
1998 - 2002: Shooters Billiards
2002 - 2004: Celebration Station
2005: Brian's Garage
2005 - 2007: Kicks Indoor Soccer Arena
2008: Jason's Game Room
2008 - 2012: SRO Sports Bar and Grill
2012 - 2014: Speedy's Go Karts
2014 - Present: Skybox Bar & Grill

Brian has an extensive resume and has no doubt done a lot for air hockey. I don't think anyone can argue that point. However, let's give credit where credit is due. Brian is not The AHPAAPAP and The AHAHPPPA is not Brian. All but one of those ventures were accomplished with other teams and team members.

However, if you were to go ahead and assume The AHHPAPPA and Brian Accrocco are synonymous, then there are still some discrepancies.

The fact is, I was 100% responsible for initiating and managing all weekly and special events at Kicks Indoor Soccer from 2005-07. The tables belonged to me and Phil. All negotiations with venue owners for event scheduling, revenue sharing, etc was done by me.

I don't think Brian can take credit for Jason's Game Room either. That was pretty much Jason Steven's doing. He bought the tables and opened up the room for us to play.

Brian was a regular attendee and tournament director at Speedy's from 2012-14, but did not facilitate that arrangement either. That was actually Frank Perez who initiated contact with the owner. Danny Hynes sealed the deal since he knows the owner. A group of regulars including Pete, Brian, Syed, Lazaro and myself managed the weeklies. I dropped out for obvious reasons after my son was born in September 2013.

Please adjust your website accordingly and reflect the events that The AHPAPAPA is directly responsible for. It's getting a little tiring watching The APAPAHAHAPP go off half cocked claiming ownership of everything around. It's offensive to everyone else who volunteered countless hours and countless dollars for those events spanning almost 2 decades -- throughout which The APAHAHAHHAHHAAHAHAH did not exist.

Mike C - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 459

Andrew, your rant and argument are very weak. If I wanted to put on my resume, I could say that I managed weeklies at SRO or Speedies or Skybox during the 5 years I've played. I managed many weeklies at SRO and a few at the other 2. I know your just trying to stir things up but why? Your trying to discredit Brian and Chris at every turn which is unfortunate considering in the 5 years I've been involved Brian and his family have put up more time and effort into air hockey than anyone else and Chris has tapped into a program to help grow the sport and it has caused the USAA to have to step up their game.

Ok it's your turn, go ahead, please beat me up and say nasty things about me or tell everyone how much of a jackass I am or I'm to new to the game so I just don't understand. Whatever, just stop spewing bullshit and believe it's gold.

TheAirHockeyGuy - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 472

ajflanagan said:

Andrew, our site states that all of those events are on Brian's resume, not the AHPA's.

" Our Co-Founder and CEO of Xtreme Airhockey, Brian Accrocco, has played a key role in the promotion of professional air hockey over the last 19 years. His events are as follows:"

The statement wasn't meant to discredit anyone else involved in the organization of those events. I will remove "his events" and replace it with "events he has helped promote, manage, and/or help organize."

Thank you for your feedback.

Chris Lee
Co-Founder, CEO
Air Hockey Players Association (AHPA)

TheAirHockeyGuy - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 472

ajflanagan said:

TheAirHockeyGuy said:

As it stands, we are not changing any values within the Mitic Rating system at this time and we see no immediate need to do so. Thank you for your feedback Cory.

Andrew,

As owners of airhockeyworld.com, if the future members of the AHPA choose to make changes to the ratings listed on our site it is within our power to do so. The USAA is welcome to store its own ratings independent of ours on their own site. Our Colorado event will hold the same values as any other world championship on airhockeyworld.com under the airhockeyworld ratings section.

Chris Lee
Co-Founder, CEO
Air Hockey Players Association (AHPA)

fupersly - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 231

TheAirHockeyGuy said:
As owners of airhockeyworld.com, if the future members of the AHPA choose to make changes to the ratings listed on our site it is within our power to do so. The USAA is welcome to store its own ratings independent of ours on their own site. Our Colorado event will hold the same values as any other world championship on airhockeyworld.com under the airhockeyworld ratings section.

I have done my best to remain neutral in these discussions so far - in fact, directly recommending that there should be no difference in k-values for the upcoming AHPA event as compared to a typical USAA World Championship event - but if anything AHPA is suggesting here will cause serious division among the player base, this would be it.

Chris: I completely recognize AHPA's ownership of AHW and you are correct that it is up to you what you choose to display here. That being the case, I would strongly implore you to not maintain ratings that would potentially conflict with ratings published by the USAA.

As Andrew mentioned (correctly), AHW does not own the Mitic rating system, nor does the USAA. I'm not sure how long they have been referred to on the Rankings page as "AirHockeyWorld Ratings", but I would certainly take that to mean "ratings stored and calculated on AHW", not "property of AHW".

The discussion of the separation between ratings and rankings was hashed out years ago, and eventually the USAA saw the value in seeding tournaments by long-term/vetted Mitic ratings (rather than short-term/snapshot USAA rankings) to create a more accurate seeding model.

Of course, that doesn't mean USAA rankings have no value. It just means that they become a different way of measuring a player's skill. You have already stated that AHPA will also maintain it's own Rankings, which is a good thing. However, it would be an unprecedented (and I believe unwarranted) step for AHPA to maintain and publish a separate set of ratings, alter the ratings formula, or exclude tournament results from USAA events in a way that confuses or invalidates the 5+ years of ratings calculations that AHW has been (and should continue to be, even in a split USAA/AHPA world) the de facto home to. If your claims of recognizing USAA events is legitimate, I can see no other way this situation can be fairly applied to the hundreds (and future thousands) of Air Hockey players who use Mitic ratings as the non-biased skill measurement they were intended to become.

If you do intend to selectively adjust Mitic rating values under the banner of "AirHockeyWorld Ratings", I believe I represent the majority of players who would ask you to reset them and begin afresh, rather than confuse the "canon" results by making unstructured/unvetted adjustments to the way in which they are calculated, or by choosing to make non-universal value adjustments to future non-AHPA tournament results. Not doing so may seriously threaten player confidence in both USAA and AHPA events.

goran - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 428

The ratings posted on this website are the airhockey world ratings. These ratings do belong to ahw.com. They are free to use what ever k value they would like. As well as make modifications to the rating rules. I suggest USAA uses these ratings as their own and keep the current rules that were adopted by the usaa rating committee. Usaa should adopt the ratings as official usaa ratings and contine to make improvements based on player feedback.

TheAirHockeyGuy - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 472

Joe, I'm a little confused and maybe it would be best to discuss over a phone call. I verified with Goran how our event would be handled in terms of ratings and k values. He told me that it would be given the value of a world championship event. In the short term, that means nothing changes and the ratings for both organizations remain the same. At some point though, maybe the USAA decides to do what Andrew said and only give our events a k value of a state tournament. We more than likely won't agree with that and we'll want it to be counted as a world championship event. At that point I see no way to not split the ratings into an AHPA rating and a USAA rating. We have no plans to not include USAA events in the ratings, the only discussion of lessening the value of the other organization's event came from a USAA member.

Chris Lee
Co-Founder, CEO
Air Hockey Players Association (AHPA)

travis - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 530

ajflanagan said:

Please adjust your website accordingly and reflect the events that The AHPAPAPA is directly responsible for. It's getting a little tiring watching The APAPAHAHAPP go off half cocked claiming ownership of everything around. It's offensive to everyone else who volunteered countless hours and countless dollars for those events spanning almost 2 decades -- throughout which The APAHAHAHHAHHAAHAHAH did not exist.

It's vitriol like this that turned me off of air hockey for good, and made me want to stop caring for a website that I poured several years of my life into. I won't miss this at all.

Travis Luscombe
AirHockeyWorld.com Webmaster
http://twitter.com/air_hockey

TheAirHockeyGuy - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 472

TheAirHockeyGuy said:

Really we are debating hypotheticals. The only reason the ratings would be different at this point is if the usaa decided to give our events a different value. Other then that, we have no changes to any values we want to make.

Chris Lee
Co-Founder, CEO
Air Hockey Players Association (AHPA)

ajflanagan - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 509

travis said:

ajflanagan said:

It's vitriol like this that turned me off of air hockey for good, and made me want to stop caring for a website that I poured several years of my life into. I won't miss this at all.

Which part is vitriol? The factual part that AHPA is claiming credit for things they didn't do? Or the AHPAPAPA thing? That part was actually funny. Sorry if you are no longer allowed to respond to humor. Why so serious?

Delete my account and you will never have hear from me again.

fupersly - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 231

TheAirHockeyGuy said:

That's exactly what I have been suggesting all along.

Glad to hear that Goran is on the same page.

At some point though, maybe the USAA decides to do what Andrew said and only give our events a k value of a state tournament. We more than likely won't agree with that and we'll want it to be counted as a world championship event. At that point I see no way to not split the ratings into an AHPA rating and a USAA rating.

I would agree if that were the case, but again, USAA does not own the ratings. If the USAA chooses to reflect ratings on its website or some other forum, I would hope that the goal would be to present a unified set of ratings that either organization can rely on. (and if not, clearly state the matter as such) After all, the ratings are primarily for the players, so having different ratings for different organizations only causes confusion. I believe everyone who wants to play a challenge match will want it to affect their overall rating, not a USAA- or AHPA-specific rating.

We have no plans to not include USAA events in the ratings, the only discussion of lessening the value of the other organization's event came from a USAA member.

I would like to address this specifically, as this has now been used as an argument on more than one occasion that the USAA is somehow against AHPA or its interests because one member suggests something.

1. The USAA is not responsible for the behavior or opinion of each and every one of its members. (although it can react in response to incidents it considers serious enough, which has happened - in fact, Brian could have motioned for Don to be removed from the board if he were still a USAA member)

2. I (or any other USAA member) can be in the same group as AC, Don, Nizzi, and others who have a history of saying things that incite and aggravate people, but that doesn't mean I agree with them or inherently support their opinions just because our efforts serve the same organization.

3. By its very nature, the USAA does not act without a vote of its membership, thus keeping one individual from affecting change in an unchecked manner. (a fact that I'm sure is not lost on you or Brian as it seems to be one of the primary reasons AHPA was formed) I understand that you guys view this as a hindrance in certain situations, but those are the same checks and balances that are also preventing any singular USAA member's opinion (right or wrong) of AHPA from being imposed on a whim.

TheAirHockeyGuy - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 472

Point taken Joe. I will refrain from debating things that have not been voted on by the USAA as a collective group.

Chris Lee
Co-Founder, CEO
Air Hockey Players Association (AHPA)

Mike C - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 459

1. The USAA is not responsible for the behavior or opinion of each and every one of its members. (although it can react in response to incidents it considers serious enough, which has happened - in fact, Brian could have motioned for Don to be removed from the board if he were still a USAA member)

Brian did that long ago and got no response from the USAA.

- 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 658

And what was so serious that he'd need to be removed from the board?

Mike C - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 459

marknizzi said:

And what was so serious that he'd need to be removed from the board?

I'm not going to give you that answer Mark, you need to look back through many messages since Chicago.

- 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 658

Okay....and I'm sure also there were pretty good reasons why Brians motion request went denied or ignored.

ajflanagan - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 509

Why hasn't my account been deleted yet?

fupersly - 03 Apr 2015
Total Posts: 231

Mike C said:

Did he officially make a motion to that effect? If he did, I'm not aware of it - and if it didn't get seconded, then it wouldn't have gone to a vote.

Not saying it was right or wrong - just the facts. (And if there had been a vote, I know how I would have voted.)

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