| goran
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 428
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travis said: I think one thing that should be considered as a future enhancement to the ratings is to have a distinction between the brand new players and the ones that used to play but are then deactivated. Inactive players' ratings should not be affected if they play a brand new player. So it would look like:
Three statuses: New, Active, Inactive (used to be active)
Active players' ratings are affected by playing against active players
Inactive players' ratings are affected by playing against active and inactive players
New players' ratings are affected by playing against new, active and inactive players
This would correct the scenario w/ Pedro, since he was an inactive player playing against a new player. |
I like it. And Tim, I would love for you to come to the meeting with proposals on how to improve. The rating system.
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| DRAGO
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 46
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goran said: | Nizzi shouldn't be playing Jimmy in the round of 32. That tournament wasn't seed right. He should have been seeded 8-12. 9 sounds fair. We should just let Don seed the tournament, then maybe he'll start playing again. |
I agree 100% with Goran.
I am just volunteering to apply the "L&L" rule to the seeds after the ratings seeds them by rule.
You let me just do the whole seed list myself with no oversight I'll play in this tournament. The bottom 1/16th of the bracket is going to be a real killer
---DJ
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- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 658
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DRAGO said: goran said: | Nizzi shouldn't be playing Jimmy in the round of 32. That tournament wasn't seed right. He should have been seeded 8-12. 9 sounds fair. We should just let Don seed the tournament, then maybe he'll start playing again. |
I agree 100% with Goran.
I am just volunteering to apply the "L&L" rule to the seeds after the ratings seeds them by rule.
You let me just do the whole seed list myself with no oversight I'll play in this tournament. The bottom 1/16th of the bracket is going to be a real killer
---DJ |
I LOVE IT! (everything but the no oversight part. ;))
It would be awesome to see you play again, Don. :) I'll commit to going and playing if you do.
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| ajflanagan
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 509
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| Don't get me wrong. I MUCH PREFER a rating system to what we have used for all these years. But, I want it to be a rating system modeled after ELO systems used world wide - not a ranking/rating hybrid which takes the worst of the two and meshes them together. |
Tim, it's good to hear that you are a proponent of a rating system for Air Hockey. I can't stress this enough... participate in the meetings and VOTE. Yes, the system got incredibly bastardized to appease a few voters who didn't want to let go of the ranking and challenge system. It was a few against a few. In order to get some sort of rating system in place, a compromise had to take place. If there were more of you intelligent number crunchers participating in the creation of the system and voting to get it in place, we would all likely be much further down the road by now.
Don, I'm sorry but "this guy is an ultra pro but this guy isn't" will not fly anymore. There's not even a definition of what an ultra pro is written down anywhere. That term is not something the USAA recognizes. So, you cannot subjectively give players erroneous classifications based on your own perceptions and expect a fair system to be the result. We are aiming to fill a 128 player chart this year. We are well on our way with 70 registered players. I am confident you have never seen half of them play and the other half you have not seen play in the last 12 months. You have NO basis for subjectively seeding anything.
The fact is, nobody here has a clue where Pedro should be seeded... because nobody has seen him play or played a set against him in over a decade. Likewise, nobody here has a clue where Nick Petito should be seeded. An objective system is in place and it functions fairly across the board without any sort of favoritism and that's the system the USAA voted and approved for use in the 2 major tournaments this year. This discussion is great, but the fact is, you're going to have a tough time getting anything changed before July.
Andrew
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- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 658
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ajflanagan said: The fact is, nobody here has a clue where Pedro should be seeded... because nobody has seen him play or played a set against him in over a decade. Likewise, nobody here has a clue where Nick Petito should be seeded. An objective system is in place and it functions fairly across the board without any sort of favoritism and that's the system the USAA voted and approved for use in the 2 major tournaments this year. This discussion is great, but the fact is, you're going to have a tough time getting anything changed before July.
Andrew |
In my opinion, ALOT of people have a good clue where Pedro should be seeded, if a person is basing their opinion through experience of seeing and playing Pedro. An airhockey player that makes 3 straight finals does not lose that much skill from taking a break. Sure they are rusty for a bit, but after some practicing, they are pretty much going to be near their top form.
Here's something to base Pedro's skill off of: In those tournaments he participated in, he defeated Wil Upchurch, Andy Yevish, Keith Fletcher, Tim Weissman, Jimmy Heilander, and Danny Hynes. These are only to my knowledge, i'm proabably leaving some other greats out. Let me ask you, Is the Tim Weissman, the Jimmy Heilander, and Danny Hynes of today, any better than in those tournaments? Some people think Danny was playing better in 2001 (Pedro's last tournament) than what he is today, and thats after winning 10 WC tournaments and 2 out his last 3 WC's finals.
If Pedro's in practice, he's got a solid chance on making the finals in this tournament, next month.
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| TWeissman
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 210
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Put me in coach, I'm ready to play.
Add me back to the USAA section.
I can't take it any more!
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| jasonstevens
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 176
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what a cluster
I'm curious to see what system and how it's being used 3-5 years from now. My guess is one that is so very complicated only a few will understand it.
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| Pedro Otero
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 269
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IMO my lost against Daniel was very handicapped since he do not earned a real rating based on his skills; it is like the tournament i played in 1998, where y was ranked very low only because i never played in USA before to the date.
Where should be Javier ranked? Im pretty sure (and Javier, Dioniosio an all venezuelans here too) that im many steps ahead of him (our record in last 9 monts is something around 20-4 or so)
Anyway, i dont really care where i will be ranked, since i know that to reach my goal i will have a hard tournament, and make some "upsets"
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| goran
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 428
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Pedro Otero said: IMO my lost against Daniel was very handicapped since he do not earned a real rating based on his skills; it is like the tournament i played in 1998, where y was ranked very low only because i never played in USA before to the date.
Where should be Javier ranked? Im pretty sure (and Javier, Dioniosio an all venezuelans here too) that im many steps ahead of him (our record in last 9 monts is something around 20-4 or so)
Anyway, i dont really care where i will be ranked, since i know that to reach my goal i will have a hard tournament, and make some "upsets" |
Great attitude Pedro, I'm sure you will out perform your seed. Others may have a problem with your seed because they fear you. Making the finals 3 years in a row proves you were one of the best. I'm excited to meet you and see how you play. Hopefully you play some sets before the tournament to get a better seed, and good practice.
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| goran
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 428
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TWeissman said: Put me in coach, I'm ready to play.
Add me back to the USAA section.
I can't take it any more!
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I think that's a great idea, I'd like to see Don at the meeting too. You should be able to get a vote to move up back to senior member.
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| Laz
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 79
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Excuse my ignorance, but how do you get on the USAA forums? Is it by going to meetings and if so am I able to attend since I haven't been to one in I think 6 years ?
Lazaro
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| TheAirHockeyGuy
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 472
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Laz said: Excuse my ignorance, but how do you get on the USAA forums? Is it by going to meetings and if so am I able to attend since I haven't been to one in I think 6 years ?
Lazaro |
To have access to the USAA forums, you must be a member of the board. You may attend the board meetings as a guest and then ask to be an affiliate board member if it is something you are interested in. The current board then votes on you becoming a member of the board which usually isn't an issue.
Chris Lee
Co-Founder, CEO
Air Hockey Players Association (AHPA)
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| DRAGO
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 46
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marknizzi said:
I LOVE IT! (everything but the no oversight part. ;))
It would be awesome to see you play again, Don. :) I'll commit to going and playing if you do. |
Oh what would have been  . I have been preparing Niz. I have been practicing in secret. I have been sneaking in sets with Billy (winning all most all very easily). Houston 2012, was to be my return. Everything was perfect, then I read the following post:
TWeissman said: To me the biggest story will actually be the Tale of Two Tournaments...
What will be the difference between the two "World" Championships held 2 months apart? How will players perceive the turnouts? The strength of the fields? The professionalism of the administration and execution of the events? Which event will go down in history as the big Air Hockey experience for the year? Which event will bring more new players in to Air Hockey?
One suggestion I have for the Ustream is to have dedicated commentators for the viewers. That way, if a new player logs in to watch, they can be introduced to the sport more effectively.
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Obviously all my training was for naught. No way I can play in this tournament after reading this, I'm not sure how anyone could plan on playing to be honest. How Micewann is not banned for 3 years for this kind of nonsense is beyond me!
---DJ
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| DRAGO
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 46
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goran said:
Great attitude Pedro, I'm sure you will out perform your seed. Others may have a problem with your seed because they fear you. Making the finals 3 years in a row proves you were one of the best. I'm excited to meet you and see how you play. Hopefully you play some sets before the tournament to get a better seed, and good practice. |
I know Goran is smart and gets this, I feel like he is messing with me. The problem with Pedro's seed is not about what Pedro deserves, it is about what the OTHER players who have earned their seeds "deserve". Nizzi who has EARNED his 5th seed doesn't deserve to play Pedro in the round of 32. The poor chump who earned a 42 seed doesn't "deserve" to play the loser of this match and get busted out of the bracket without a chance either.
goran said:
I think that's a great idea, I'd like to see Don at the meeting too. You should be able to get a vote to move up back to senior member
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I'll be there and I'll have a copy of your suggestion to guarentee your vote.
---DJ
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- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 658
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| Don, you and I are iron men and are capable of both playing and commentating! :) And if I have to play Pedro, you can always coach me because you know what it takes to beat him. :)
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| DRAGO
- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 46
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marknizzi said: | Don, you and I are iron men and are capable of both playing and commentating! :) And if I have to play Pedro, you can always coach me because you know what it takes to beat him. :) |
As for your commentating, I have some remarks about that coming in my tournament report. I'll be posting them Friday so stay tuned
And not to hijack this thread, but since I know everybody whether they admit it or not reads my posts, don't miss the post by Jacob Weissman in the first area of the forums. Check it out
---DJ
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- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 658
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DRAGO said: marknizzi said: | Don, you and I are iron men and are capable of both playing and commentating! :) And if I have to play Pedro, you can always coach me because you know what it takes to beat him. :) |
As for your commentating, I have some remarks about that coming in my tournament report. I'll be posting them Friday so stay tuned
And not to hijack this thread, but since I know everybody whether they admit it or not reads my posts, don't miss the post by Jacob Weissman in the first area of the forums. Check it out
---DJ
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Pedro actually lost to more than one American, he lost to Ehab (2001), Andy (1999), Wil (swiss 2001), and you (2000) in WC's. And Jose ('98,'99,'00,''01) as well obviously, but then Jose was representing Venezuela.
I'm looking forward to having Pedro and his talent back in action. Truly an awesome and deadly player! I want him and all the other Venezuelans, as many as possible to make this tournament.
And it'd be great to see you play again too Don, after 6 years of not playing, and 8 years from playing seriously.
Remarks about my commentating??.......can't wait to hear what trouble i'm in. :) All i can say is i do my best to try and help out the tournament. Never would claim im a pro at it....or an "ultra pro" either. That term doesn't exist anymore anyways. ;)
And i read Jacobs post. Very bright kid. Can write much better than I can at my ripe ol age (much larger vocabulary too), and he's only what, 16? Nicely done story, Jacob!
-Nizzi
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- 11 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 658
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| One more thing; we have all made mistakes in our pasts. My forfeiture 3 years ago negatively affected the tournament. I hope that there is some forgiveness for that, and I hope that sort of thing won't be held against me for too long. Whatever mistakes pedro and others have made are in the past too. Lets move on and try to make each tournament a good and exciting one to look forward to for everyone. :)
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| travis
- 12 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 530
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Guys, feel free to argue and/or discuss the seeding, but please keep personal attacks out of it. They will be removed.
Thanks.
Travis Luscombe
AirHockeyWorld.com Webmaster
http://twitter.com/air_hockey
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| goran
- 12 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 428
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Here is the rating seed for top 40 of registered or likely to play players. It gives a seed of 23 to Pedro. Where do you think he "Should" be? I don't want a range like 8-12, I want an exact number...
1 Billy
2 Danny
3 Ehab
4 Davis
5 Jose
6 Nizzi
7 tim
8 Brian
9 Anthony
10 Fletcher
11 Q
12 Travis
13 Syed
14 Albert
15 Goran
16 Geoffroy
17 Dan Meyer
18 Lippincott
19 Ramiro
20 Joe Cain
21 August
22 Evan
23 Pedro
24 Javier
25 Robbins
26 Mike Cummings
27 Mike Thomas
28 Andrew Flanagan
29 Fernando
30 Donovan
31 Chris Lee
32 Colin Cummings
33 Phil Arnold
34 Tom baldus
35 lazzaro
36 Alex Ortiz
37 Justin Flores
38 Keith Garcia
39 Jason Stevens
40 Dave Parmley
Its not perfect, but it's fair and objective, unlike the alternative. If you don't like your seed get out and play. Tim and Don, are you going to answer my question on how the usaa "should" seed a nationals. We would all love to hear your great ideas.
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| TWeissman
- 12 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 210
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Actually just because you use a number system to arrive at seedings does not make it fair and objective. I know you opposed the bastardizing of the system but nonetheless it is a bastardized system. The right thing to do is to fix it, not punish unsuspecting players in the losers bracket of the world championships.
Pedro's seed should be whatever it lands at after removing the 192 point swing in his rating resulting from a single match against an unknown commodity.
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| goran
- 12 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 428
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TWeissman said: Actually just because you use a number system to arrive at seedings does not make it fair and objective. I know you opposed the bastardizing of the system but nonetheless it is a bastardized system. The right thing to do is to fix it, not punish unsuspecting players in the losers bracket of the world championships.
Pedro's seed should be whatever it lands at after removing the 192 point swing in his rating resulting from a single match against an unknown commodity. |
That sounds more like a fair idea. The problem is not that Pedro's seeding is wrong, the problem is his rating is inaccurate due to a loss to an unknown player. I motion we use Travis idea to not adjust an inactive players rating against an establishing player and put the 192 Points back to Pedro's rating.
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| Davisl
- 12 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 168
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"We always have to be in the middle of the action 'cause we're the warriors. And without some challenge, without some damn war to fight then the warriors might as well be dead, Stallion!"
1. billy
2. danny
3. ehab
4. davis
5. jose
6. nizzi
7. tim
8. brian
9. anthony
10. fletcher
11. Q
12. travis
13. pedro
14. syed
15. albert
16. goran
17. nick
18. meyer
19. pete l
20. ramiro
21. august
22. evan
23. javier
24. robbins
25. cummings
26. thomas
27. andrew
28. fernando
29. donovan
30. chris lee
31. colin
32. phil
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| goran
- 12 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 428
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| Putting the 192 points back to Pedro's rating will put Pedro at 13 right now. Just like Davis's list.
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| Q
- 12 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 497
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goran said: | Putting the 192 points back to Pedro's rating will put Pedro at 13 right now. Just like Davis's list. |
I didn't want to fully hijack the discussion about hearing people's opinions on where Pedro would fall either by Goran's solution or the "L&L" rule but I posted a long discussion about the cause of the anomaly in the system over in "General Discussions". The thesis statement I am trying to get across over there is that there is mathematical justification for the solution that Goran has proposed, but I would be initially careful and cautious to make it a global change to the system on short notice and without a careful oversight for causes of other errors. The other thing to note is that if Pedro's rating was unchanged because he was playing a new player of unknown "true skill" where does Daniel's rating fall. (1640 was due to the +1 rule because of Pedro's rating decline. 1400 would be the new rating for D.O. if the +1 rule did not apply due to Pedro's non changing rating)
http://airhockeyworld.com/forummessages.asp?forum=1&thread=1298&page=1#threadend
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| jsbritton
- 12 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 421
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TWeissman said: Put me in coach, I'm ready to play.
Add me back to the USAA section.
I can't take it any more!
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sweeT
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| jsbritton
- 12 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 421
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AC wrote:
"If a player doesn't like their seed, there is plenty of time to get out there and play some matches."
really ? being geographically isolated i can almost understand pedro's issue.
the problem i have is that while you guys were playing the tournament in vegas ... someone was heckling pedro a little on the chat and pedro ADMITTED publicly, that if he was reffing a match where he had to play the winner/loser, that he would cheat in order to benefit. read it for yourself. someone then asked him when he was going to pay back bill lang for the plane ticket to the 2004 chicago tournament that was purchased for him ... for which he was a no show and a no response.
you cannot take any match data from him seriously or the whole system comes falling down like a house of cards. i only have two rated players within FIVE hundred miles of me. how the hell am i supposed to get back in the system without travelling 500 miles ? the "snapshot" will prevent pedro and others like myself from earning a better seed right before the tournament (when we can actually play a variety of people).
i'll tell you one thing though, i will not create players or lie about match scores for any reason. i have nothing against pedro personally, as i only met him once ... but ...
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| jsbritton
- 12 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 421
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| someone then asked him when he was going to pay back bill lang for the plane ticket to the 2004 chicago tournament that was purchased for him ... for which he was a no show and a no response. |
i think that person was referring to 2007 actually, but i am not sure. i do know that it was a chicago national tournament. i remember talking to bill lang about it as well...
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| Q
- 12 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 497
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| @JSB: You are in the system. You just have an "inactive" status/rating currently according to the set of rules in place at this moment. This means you can play those 2 people, you can play new players, you can travel to play people. All of these would influence your rating, even at a inactive state. Read the "explanation" link on the rankings page for all the details. How would you plan to improve your seed if you didn't travel to someone with a ranking under that system? If you want to see where you fall currently in rating versus anyone who has ever had a reported set on AHW and see your current status, there's a link for htat as well on the rankings page of AHW. (2012 Status link)
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| Pedro Otero
- 12 Jun 2012
Total Posts: 269
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I admited that? lol Had you notice that i cheated in an airhockey table? I were clarifing that IS IS NOT SMART that any player be a ref in a match where he will play next the winner/losser. Did you see that in ANY OTHER SPORT IN THE ENTIRE WORLD? Also, why i should ask to somebody who do not said his name in the chat? Did Bill Lang ask it? Who asked that? Only kids remains anonimous on chats, and i dont need give explanations to kids.
As for my match info, you can take it or not. If not, then no one match since im playing again must be counted. It is ok for me. And sorry, but i dont remember you.
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