| Pedro Otero
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 269
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This has been the worst USAA tournament I've ever played: low participation, bad tables and wrong organization. I know Chicago players did their best to give us a National level tournament this year, and it deserves and great credit, but the tournament overall was poor.
a) Is Chris Aston a 1 in a handicaped tournament? What kind of criteria makes me a 6 for the organization? I asked some weeks before the tournament and i never get an answer. Seems there was a lot of improvisation.
b) All players i talked with agreed that the tables were not appropriate for a tournament. Sorry if this is not politically correct Mark, but i believe is not honest that nobody mentioned it yet in the forums. I hope your company can fix this soon.
c) I were forced to play every 15 minutes on sunday, but after i lost with danny, looks like the time was not a problem. Nothing else to add about this, i think is very clear.
d) Doubles finals were scheduled for saturday morning, but suddenly changed for friday. More improvisation.
e) A big 0 for the USAA for the match between Billy and Marcelo. I dont want 5 goals in advantage against someone else who is traveling from far, do not speak english and is lost in the city looking for his wife. I dont want/like that kind of wins. If Billy was unable to refuse the 5 goals then the USAA must change the rules.
f) The payout was really POOR and top 32 did not get a trophy as it was announced in the flyer.
Finally, I am satisfied with my tournament: I finished 3rd, exactly the same same position i predicted just 10 days before the tournament. I lost to Javier and Danny even when i scored more goals than them (which means nothing, i know) I defeated Ehab (to get my revenge from 2001 nationals), Tim (again in a national after 1998 and 2000), Billy (sweetest victory), Mark R (I hope he still believes i have the best defense), Colin (I cant wait to see him in 2 years), Lazaro (unexpectly hard match) and Chris Aston (who defeated me in the handicap tournament)
I want congrat again Danny for his victory. You may be the GOAT, but you are still easy (joke inside) You are the first american player who knocked me out of a national tournament, and i want my revenge soon.
Congrats to Davis for his amazing tournament: he proved me that i was wrong and he is not a crazy-shot player. My apologizes.
Big thanks to Billy for give me the extra-motivation i needed to beat Tim and him. I hope he wins the #1 again via challenge match and offers 1K$: i like Chicago 
Special mention to Anselmo and Dionisio for allowing us play and practice on their table. Without it, we probably will not keep our competitive level: thanks a lot.
Eagle
PS Looks like finally i was right, and the airhockey is not better now than 15 years ago. You can recognize it or not, it will not change nothing. Jose in 1999 against Danny in 2002 is probably the best airhockey match we will never see.
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| stubbs7
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 582
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The tournament was below average in many ways. However, it was between having this tournament or NO tournament at all this year. I think this tournament was much better than nothing :) If you would like a tournament with higher attendance, better organization etc, then I suggest that you organize one, help with ours or put money towards one.
I agree that the GSG tables were not fit for tournament play. I am going to do a comparison of the same players vs each other and look at how many times the puck flew off the table per 100 shots from this tournament compared to other tournaments on Dynamo's tables. If anyone would like to help, this would be a good starting point for GSG to reference as they continue to refine their product. I am all for GSG, but the tables do not hold the pucks. I would guess that the pucks fly 5-10 times more often. I brought this up during the sanctioning of the GSG tables at the USAA board meeting in Houston 2012 - the issue has not been fixed.
Pedro, if you're going to get upset at players for simply cheering for your opponent, then you're probably going to be upset a lot in the future if you continue to act the way you do on these forums, screw over people, and behave like you behaved at the tournament. You used homosexual slurs in Spanish during your matches and spiked playing equipment into spectators. This type of behavior shows very poor sportsmanship. If it were any other sport you'd be fined and possibly suspended.
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| Q
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 497
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Thank you for your feedback Pedro. I will address some of your points below.
a) For Chris Aston, we had not seen him play prior to the handicapped tournament but knew that he had played previously with the Dallas crew. A vote was taken amongst a few of the players and we had felt a 1 was appropriate based upon the data that we had on him prior to the tournament. Tim has been working on a skill assessment test that could have evaluated him slightly higher than this.
As for your level of a 6, you are a former number 1 ranked player, have been in multiple tournament finals, and finished 3rd at this tournament. A 6 seems appropriate to me based in these facts alone. Other 6's are Danny, Ehab, BA, Davis, Billy, Jose. Sorry that I missed your post asking about handicap levels but since you know where your game level is, I thought it would have been clear where you would be.
b) Mark will have to address these concerns so I would contact him with your thoughts and feedback.
c) The finals were delayed slightly due to unexpected delays in finishing most of the spinoffs. The original plan was for a 15-30 minute break with time to rearrange the room. As for the timing of other matches of players still alive in the main draw, I will have to defer to players that have made it through all of tournament Sunday to comment if the 15 minute gap is normal (since Ive never been alive that long :) ). We condensed tournament Sunday for the top 12 to two tables, then just one table with a 15 minute break in between sets per tournament procedures.
f) Flyer said cash and prizes to the top 32. "Prizes" included the bag or hat that Mark generously gave out to the entire field, not just the top 32 given the turnout. As far as I can tell from looking at the accounting, 100% of the entry fees went to the cash payout for each of the events which was to 32 places in singles, top 5 in doubles, top 4 in handicapped event.
Congrats on your finish.
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| goran
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 428
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Thank you for your feedback...
C) matches called quickly is common when fighring through the losers bracket. You do have 15 minutes to report to the table after your match is called, so you always have atleast 30 minutes between sets.
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| Pedro Otero
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 269
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@billy
I did not use homosexual slurs in spanish during the matches. I guess all games are in video so anyone can translate my words to you: im talking to myself, and im sure almost everybody but you knows that. This is a very serious acusation since im very sure i respect everyone in and out of the table, so after you check the videos i will wait for your apologizes.
I dont "spiked playing equipment into spectators"; i hit the table with my mallet and lost control over it. Thats all. It happens continuosly in airhockey. I get my warning for what i did wrong (hit the table) and also another warning for an accident (lost control of my mallet) What else do you want? Maybe we must call the police each time one player feels frustrated!
I told to Ehab that you are a better player than me after i beated you; i told to Goran and Dan that i dont have nothing against you at all out of the table. If one day you need help i will do all i can, same for other people that could feel that i "screw" them here or in the table.
@Q
How was the votation, if you guys never saw him playing before? He was a 1 and you hurt all the other players in the tournament. If you overestimate him, you will only hurt 1 player. It should be taked in consideration for next tournaments.
As for my level, i had only 1830 in my ratings. Why the same criteria do no apply for my entry fee? If we are working with ratings, why use old history (finals) or single days apreciations (ranked #1)
My fail: i believe the flier says trophys for top 32. I apologize for this mistake.
@Goran
30 minutes is not enough when you play strong matches and you are close to the 40 years old 
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| stubbs7
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 582
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Pedro Otero said: @billy
I did not use homosexual slurs in spanish during the matches. I guess all games are in video so anyone can translate my words to you: im talking to myself, and im sure almost everybody but you knows that. This is a very serious acusation since im very sure i respect everyone in and out of the table, so after you check the videos i will wait for your apologizes.
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Everyone doesn't know that you are talking to yourself. Danny Hynes and my fiancee, both whom speak Spanish, translated your words and indicated that you were referring to me.
You do not show respect to people on and off the table. You've threatened violence towards me, no-showed for matches, lied about challenge matches, falsely reported matches to your advantage, Bill Lang purchased your airfare in '04 (you never showed and kept the money), and on and on. These last infractions against you are of no surprise. Just add them to a long list.
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| Pedro Otero
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 269
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| If you want to discredit me (for whatever reason, probably because you know that you will never beat me in a table) try another way. I will never show the disrespect to make acusations in public. You want make it personal? Then be happy with that. Maybe you could find the way for the USAA to suspend me forever. Trust me, i will be happy even if it happens
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| stubbs7
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 582
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All of these issues with you have been discussed at great length here on the forums. It's not personal accusations, it's public knowledge among the air hockey community. With the only exception being your threats of physical violence towards me.
The new issues are also not just my personal opinion. Everyone saw you intentionally spike your mallet and it went flying into the crowd. Danny Hynes (considered very honorable) and my fiancee (an Illinois State's Attorney) have both corroborated your use of homosexual slurs towards me while you were in your match with Tim.
For you to try to paint yourself as a victim is delusional at best.
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| Pedro Otero
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 269
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With the only exception being your threats of physical violence towards me.
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Could you give me more info? Maybe my translator is not working fine. Physical violence? You were sick in febraury and maybe now you were under "threats of physical violence"? Any other player feels that playing with me?
AFAIK, Danny do not speak spanish very well but if he thinks that, he is trustable enough for me to believe that i said something inopropiate under pressure. Trust me, i believe you are heterosexual, but i really dont care if you are or not. As for me, you can try with horses if it makes you happy
| Everyone saw you intentionally spike your mallet and it went flying into the crowd |
Intentionally? Everyone saw that? Stop making acusations. You lost. Period. Accept it and try to be happy.
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| stubbs7
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 582
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Your threats of physical violence towards me were made over chat, almost a decade ago. I brought up the situation of you robbing Bill Lang. You said that you would physically kick my ass the next time you were in the same room with me. It was very clear that you were talking about fighting.
My fiancee is a bilingual trial attorney for the State. She speaks Spanish fluently. Also given your history of creating problems, Danny and her corroborations don't bode well for you.
Yes, everyone saw you spike your mallet intentionally. Your mallet then went into the crowd.
Don't worry Pedro, I won't try to get you suspended. I like playing you too much and it's good for air hockey to have a villain around, as long as you start showing a modicum of decency. Learn from your mistakes and don't do them again.
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| Pedro Otero
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 269
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Talking about a chat conversation that happpened one decade ago says enough about your madurity, so i will not take seriously your public acussation of robbing Bill Lang, even when it is a reason to sue you for defamation.
Your fiancee is not very trustable due to neutrality, with all my respect for her.
Looks like you recognize that the mallet went into the crowd by accident. Did i deserve 2 warnings for hitting the table? Maybe i need read the rules.
I like be the villain  I really dont care much about Venezuela over USA and all those stuff, but i think im very good to make the people want beat me in a table, and i really enjoy that.
Keep practicing, you will need it... a lot.
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| stubbs7
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 582
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You can try to sue for defamation, but you're going to need to show that 1. it caused you harm (your best course is to show financial harm), 2. is false (let's talk to Bill Lang) and 3. that I knew it was false (I've talked to Bill Lang, he says that he purchased your ticket, you never showed, and you didn't pay him back). Good luck with any three of those.
Bottom line is that you have a long history of creating problems for this community from you very first tournament 13 years ago when you lied about challenge matches for personal benefit, up to this tournament with using slurs and display of poor sportsmanship, and everything in between. Stop lying. Stop being a cancer.
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| ajflanagan
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 509
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I applaud the Chicago crew for giving Air Hockey a World Championship event in 2013... when otherwise there would not have been one. Nothing about the circumstances this year was ideal, but it is what it is and our community persevered.
Also, thanks to the crew for carrying the torch and hosting a handicapped event as part of the series. If we are consistent with that event and work to grow it, that could very well be the thing that helps carry Air Hockey into the future.
As long as there are handicapped tournaments, there are going to be endless arguments about player skill level assessments. Try to keep one thing in mind, these handicapped tournaments are not designed for you... they don't favor you... they don't give you any advantages. These events are specifically designed to market the sport to new and low level players. To give them an opportunity to play competitive matches against players they would otherwise rarely play. The lower level players - especially new players - should ALWAYS get the benefit of the doubt and NEVER be overrated in their skill assessment.
As veteran players, we should go into these events knowing it is what it is. By participating, you are truly helping to give back to the sport in a selfless way. It's NOT a fair fight. It's not supposed to be.
Chris Aston's win in this year's handicapped tournament is the single BEST thing that happened at the whole event, just as Chris Lee's appearance in the finals was my favorite moment last year. In all probability, that win lit a fire in that kid. He competed with the best, made it to the finals and won! Please... bitch all you want about the number of trophies or the cash payouts... but don't take the wind out of this kid's sail. The handicapped tournament did what it was designed to do.
I wasn't at the tournament (obviously) so I can't really comment on the rest. I did see one player's cash winnings posted on Facebook and was a little surprised. He finished in the low 20's and did not place in the top 3 of any spinoff, yet he got a cash prize that didn't even come close to covering his entry fee. In my opinion, when your capital is thin for a tournament, put it to work where it's going to do the most good. Giving $14 to a 20-something place finish isn't really doing anything good for the event or for the perception of the sport... especially when it's plastered on Facebook.
I'm not trying to be negative here... just offering a constructive criticism. Put the money you have to work where it will do the most good for the event and for the sport.
Looking forward to see what 2014 brings!
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| Pedro Otero
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 269
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15 years ago (not 13), one decade ago... Did you growth all this years? Did you learned something in your life?
Interesting that you talked about laws. To rob you need to get a financial/economic benefit. What you talked with Bill Lang included some money for me? Be clear, maybe i must sue Bill too  Also interesting that you mentioned cancer when you know that one of my parents is now fighting against it, and that was the reason that i cant went to Houston in April.
I think i make the sport better, even if you dont like it. I leave the sport for more than 10 years, did you remember that? My return will hopefully create a reborn of expectation: many people will go to the next tournament only to see how i kick your a$$ again 
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| stubbs7
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 582
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Pedro Otero said: 15 years ago (not 13), one decade ago... Did you growth all this years? Did you learned something in your life?
Interesting that you talked about laws. To rob you need to get a financial/economic benefit. What you talked with Bill Lang included some money for me? Be clear, maybe i must sue Bill too Also interesting that you mentioned cancer when you know that one of my parents is now fighting against it, and that was the reason that i cant went to Houston in April.
I think i make the sport better, even if you dont like it. I leave the sport for more than 10 years, did you remember that? My return will hopefully create a reborn of expectation: many people will go to the next tournament only to see how i kick your a$$ again |
Pedro lied about and falsely reported matches 15 years ago. He's right about that.
According to Bill Lang, Bill bought Pedro's ticket, then Pedro no-showed and then Pedro didn't pay Bill back even though he requested it. Pedro followed his pattern of no-showing without warning, and in the process harmed Bill financially.
My reference to you being a "cancer" was not intended to be an insult to your parents. All 4 of my grandparents died of cancer. I will not use that word again. I intended to convey that you are a destructive and draining force on the air hockey community. But I don't need to say that, all we need to do is look at your pattern of behavior over the last 15 years and it's obvious to anyone paying attention.
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| fupersly
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 231
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ajflanagan said: | I applaud the Chicago crew for giving Air Hockey a World Championship event in 2013... when otherwise there would not have been one. Nothing about the circumstances this year was ideal, but it is what it is and our community persevered. |
What about MLAH events, AC? You were the first one to bring up the issue of invalidating those events due to low attendance, yet you give the Chicago tournament a pass because... why, exactly?
I wasn't there and I also appreciate what the Chicago team did, but you should at least be as consistent in your praise as you are in your criticism of events and what you want for the sport.
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| stubbs7
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 582
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Have Flanagan and Cain ever had beef on the forums before? I, for one, would like to watch this :)
I've got to stir up some other feuds. I'm drained from being in almost all of them lately!
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| fupersly
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 231
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stubbs7 said: | I intended to convey that you are a destructive and draining force on the air hockey community. But I don't need to say that, all we need to do is look at your pattern of behavior over the last 15 years and it's obvious to anyone paying attention. |
Are you sure you're talking about Pedro and not Don James? 
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| stubbs7
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 582
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| Take all of your feelings for Don James, apply them to Pedro Otero, and then you're standing in my shoes :)
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| fupersly
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 231
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stubbs7 said: | Have Flanagan and Cain ever had beef on the forums before? I, for one, would like to watch this :) |
Not lately, but I'd say we've had more than a few. And don't forget the old listserv argument we had that resulted in him getting the "Assclown" nickname. That would be a thread worth digging up from the archives. 
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| stubbs7
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 582
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| You gave Flanagan the AC nickname?!? I had no idea. I thought it was self imposed. This needs its own thread, ASAP.
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- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 658
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stubbs7 said: Your threats of physical violence towards me were made over chat, almost a decade ago. I brought up the situation of you robbing Bill Lang. You said that you would physically kick my ass the next time you were in the same room with me. It was very clear that you were talking about fighting.
My fiancee is a bilingual trial attorney for the State. She speaks Spanish fluently. Also given your history of creating problems, Danny and her corroborations don't bode well for you.
Yes, everyone saw you spike your mallet intentionally. Your mallet then went into the crowd.
Don't worry Pedro, I won't try to get you suspended. I like playing you too much and it's good for air hockey to have a villain around, as long as you start showing a modicum of decency. Learn from your mistakes and don't do them again. |
I agree with Billy. Villains are important for our sport. I played the villain for so long, it was a lot of fun. Now, I'm more like a good dude having a bad day. ;) I'm glad you are here Pedro, but.....
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| stubbs7
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 582
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marknizzi said: stubbs7 said: Your threats of physical violence towards me were made over chat, almost a decade ago. I brought up the situation of you robbing Bill Lang. You said that you would physically kick my ass the next time you were in the same room with me. It was very clear that you were talking about fighting.
My fiancee is a bilingual trial attorney for the State. She speaks Spanish fluently. Also given your history of creating problems, Danny and her corroborations don't bode well for you.
Yes, everyone saw you spike your mallet intentionally. Your mallet then went into the crowd.
Don't worry Pedro, I won't try to get you suspended. I like playing you too much and it's good for air hockey to have a villain around, as long as you start showing a modicum of decency. Learn from your mistakes and don't do them again. |
I agree with Billy. Villains are important for our sport. I played the villain for so long, it was a lot of fun. Now, I'm more like a good dude having a bad day. ;) I'm glad you are here Pedro, but..... |
Ha! Maybe I've been playing the good guy too long. Sometimes Hulk Hogan had to go bad to start winning again :) #NWO4Life
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| ajflanagan
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 509
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Laugh it up.
Joe, in case you hadn't noticed, I'm trying to be a little more productive these days. Yea, attendance in Chicago was low. But I think they know that. The tournament was essentially thrown together with little money and little time. More importantly, they didn't go comb the lobby of the local Red Roof Inn for "players" to fill the chart and then forfeit them out.
I'm the first to admit that 2013 was a humbling year for Air Hockey. We had a really great thing going, but now it's gone. Air Hockey is again on the brink of extinction... yet the "string rule" is still a top order of business.
...and Don James is still an asshole.
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- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 658
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ajflanagan said: Laugh it up.
Joe, in case you hadn't noticed, I'm trying to be a little more productive these days. Yea, attendance in Chicago was low. But I think they know that. The tournament was essentially thrown together with little money and little time. More importantly, they didn't go comb the lobby of the local Red Roof Inn for "players" to fill the chart and then forfeit them out.
I'm the first to admit that 2013 was a humbling year for Air Hockey. We had a really great thing going, but now it's gone. Air Hockey is again on the brink of extinction... yet the "string rule" is still a top order of business.
...and Don James is still an asshole. |
Now now Andrew, Remember at last year's board meeting how upset you were at Don (as you brought it up there), for calling you a moron on the forums. Now look what you're doing. I think you and Don need to kiss and make up. :)
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| stubbs7
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 582
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ajflanagan said: Laugh it up.
Joe, in case you hadn't noticed, I'm trying to be a little more productive these days. Yea, attendance in Chicago was low. But I think they know that. The tournament was essentially thrown together with little money and little time. More importantly, they didn't go comb the lobby of the local Red Roof Inn for "players" to fill the chart and then forfeit them out.
I'm the first to admit that 2013 was a humbling year for Air Hockey. We had a really great thing going, but now it's gone. Air Hockey is again on the brink of extinction... yet the "string rule" is still a top order of business.
...and Don James is still an asshole. |
I felt like outside of this tournament that 2013 was OK for air hockey. Early this year we had good IL and CA states. The HCO was solid. Venezuela, Spain and Russia had Nationals. There was also lots of challenge match activity. Houston had a summer league. Portland has new activity. Yeah, not good...I know. But by air hockey standards, not bad :)
We really need to change our standards.
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| fupersly
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 231
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ajflanagan said: | Joe, in case you hadn't noticed, I'm trying to be a little more productive these days. |
I'm glad to hear it, Andrew. I really am. Michael might appreciate hearing that, too.
| Yea, attendance in Chicago was low. But I think they know that. The tournament was essentially thrown together with little money and little time. More importantly, they didn't go comb the lobby of the local Red Roof Inn for "players" to fill the chart and then forfeit them out. |
Well, that didn't last long... :p
Listen, as long as we're stuck reliving the past and harboring bad feelings for one another (especially at the organizer level), we will NEVER get to the "promised land" of the future we all want. Think of what we could do if we could all set our differences aside for even one event and work together as a unified force!
I said what I said because I think it's important for Air Hockey for the Houston group and MLAH to leave whatever negativity existed between you in the past and bury the hatchet. Yes, that means I think Michael needs to leave some hard feelings behind, too - I do recognize that that particular street runs 2 ways.
And as much as I think it's good for us to be humbled from time to time, I think what's more important is to learn from that and try to find a way to avoid it in the future. Again, if we could put the collective learnings and experience of the most recent crop of organizers (Michael, AC, Brian, Billy, Cory, and many others) to work for the greater good on a single event, we might just have something.
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| fupersly
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 231
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ajflanagan said: | ...and Don James is still an asshole. |
Seconded.
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| Pedro Otero
- 25 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 269
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My criticism is for the system used to stablish skill levels in handicapped tournaments, not for Chris at all. He really looks ashamed when he played me. I agree completely with everything Andrew said about this.
I posted some months ago that the airhockey did not change at all in 10 years. Same players, same rules, and yes, same nosense discussions. Airhockey as a competitive sport will die with us if we dont find the way to change this.
We need more players, young players, dedicated players, and for this, we need more money. How much the houstonian players wasted in plane tickets? Hotel and car rentals? Which percentage of all this money was dedicated to the tournament itself? If we cant find sponsors, maybe we must put the money from our wallets. Is just an idea. If we could have 100K$ for prizes for the next year nationals, surely we will have a lot of sponsors and media coverage.
| ...and Don James is still an asshole. |
Really?
Billy, if you feel for me what i feel for Don James, well, im sorry, but we will never be good friends
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| carolina phil
- 26 Oct 2013
Total Posts: 1084
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Looking for Villains? Now that I am not President, I am returning to my early days of loud and obnoxious AH. Even got a conduct warning before I could go into my Maniac Zone against the quiet, but deadly, Marcelo.
Phil
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