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| tableman
- 03 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 690
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Interesting how Pedro has taken the dominant narrative of the past 15 years of AH, and challenged it as delusional. The dominant narrative (which the vast majority of players, me included, agree with) has been this:
"AH has improved greatly over the past 15 years. Defenses are better, offensives more powerful, shots more crisp. Danny, at his best, took AH to a new level after the millenium, winning 10 Worlds along the way. Then Billy did the seemingly impossible, training fanatically and passing Danny, winning the #1 Ranking from him convincingly, then two Worlds in a row. AH is better than ever."
Then Pedro comes along and basically says: "Wait a minute - you Americans are delusional. Nothing has changed since 1998-2000, when I was beating all the American players. I beat them all then, and I can beat them all now."
Before the match with Billy, we all thought PEDRO was delusional - we figured he'd get his ass handed to him in the proverbial sling. But he shocked the AH world with his victory.
So what now? Have the last 15 years of U.S. AH been an ILLUSION... just us fat compacent Americans deluding ourselves? Or did Pedro just have a great day (and Billy a bad day) that won't be repeated?
My analysis is this: there are two reasons to think that, great as he is, Pedro may not be able to repeat his victory in the upcoming matches against the elite players.
1. Billy won't use it as an excuse, but he was sick, so maybe his game lacked that extra energy and focus that he needed against a great opponent.
2. More importantly: as great as Billy's offense is... and his defense has improved as well... Billy's defense is not as good as Danny's, Tim's, Ehab's. (I wish Ehab were playing Pedro - why is he not on the list?). It's possible that Danny, Tim, and Ehab might find an answer for Pedro's cut/RW attack that Billy just didn't have. In which case, Pedro may be in trouble, unless he pulls out an equally devastating cross/LW attack that we've never seen. :) On the other hand Pedro has a great defense, which should keep him in a match against any of the Master Elite.
I look forward to some great AH....
Mark
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| underdog
- 03 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 22
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| AirHockey has changed since Pedro (and Jose) arrived in the US.. More so, the talent level of the masses has gotten better at a quicker pace then say the top level players in general (IMHO).. But it's not like Pedro has been sitting on his ass since 2000 or whenever his last major tournament was.. Pedro has practiced with other players since 2000 and the players he has practiced with are very capable Venezuelan players. Pedro and Jose arrived with great talent, that talent (at that age) doesn't just disappear..
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| carolina phil
- 04 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 1084
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There is no black and white about "yesterday" and "today." There is oscillation between the two, a back and forth, but with the "today" gradually gaining ground on "yesterday" in better ah play.
This model explains best Pedro's victory. Just like it explains why Mark and I are still "in the fight." Modern players are better in general, but not every modern player matches up well with a supremely great "yesterday" player. Without detailing it, I think that the way Billy's game has evolved in the modern era actually provided Pedro specific opportunities that, say, Danny's game does not. Billy's game expresses the latest mutations of modern ah. But those very adaptations ran into trouble against a strong game from yesteryear.
For example, a modern grizzly bear is prepared to kill a modern lion, but what if a time machine brought a saber tooth tiger for the bear to fight. It would be a much closer fight because the bear has evolved against the current field of beasts, not against a beast from the distance past who knows how to kill in the old ways.
Plus, it is also true that a great old game can compete with a modern game when the old game is played by top of the food chain competitors. They say an elite samurai with a stick can kill some warriors with a sword.
I think the modern evolution of the sport will cause some great players, like Danny or Tim, to win some matches and tournament sets against Pedro. But,a couple of losses over the next six months will improve him to where he becomes a part of the modern era. At that point, his natural gifts and game will benefit from adapting to the modern era, and his game will become even better.
So, by this time next year, he may dominate all.
Carolina Phil
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| Pedro Otero
- 04 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 269
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Mark, i believe that "the world as it is" is a more apropiate title for your post. I dont like talk about things like become older every year and all what it means, but surely we all are older now than in 1998, and it affects directly our abilities to play AH.
I posted several months ago that what i saw in the videos from Las Vegas and Houston nationals do not showed nothing new to me; i mean, i were not worried for the skills the top finishers shows in the table. Not just trash talking, i was talking seriously trying to be all the honest i can. Air Hockey master-elite skills are not strange for me, and i strongly believe that i have a good perspective of the whole game.
Some days ago i had the chance to talk a lot with Phil about this and other things related to our loved sport. Im not the best player, probably im not the best even now when im #1, i can recognize that (im doing this since i assume this is a serious topic, this words should not be used in other topics ) whit the same honestity that i can say the airhockey level do not growth after the best years of the top players had been go. We are too old to play against a younger players, it happens in all the sports, but in our sport, we do not have young dedicated players, thats the reason why the same players are still in the top. Look at the previous generation: Jesse, Robert, Phil, Youself, you all lost the throne when a new dedicated generation enters into the sport. Can you imagine a Reggie Jackson like the 4th at bat in the Yankees now? Michael Jordan with a 30 ppg? (well, maybe jordan could do it now even with 50  )
I believe that the most talented players in our sport was Jose, and that the peak of the level was Danny in 2003-2004. I saw some videos from those tournaments and it shocked me at the moment; Danny played the best airhockey i ever see on those years (not now, bald and fat  )
Could this peak be broken? Of course, but for a new young player. Maybe colin, for example, could reach a level that now we just can not imagine. But the "medium guard" is too old now to climb the higger mountains.
Anyway, it is only my theory, and i probed that if it is no all right, it is at least in the right way.
Note: I did not play any Airhockey between 2001-2011 with the exception of 2 days (2003 barcelona tournament and one challenge against Pedro Ramirez in 2007)
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| tableman
- 04 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 690
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Pedro, it is truly amazing that you could come back so strong after not playing for 10 years. The 10-year layoff is why we all thought YOU would be old, fat, and slow. :)
But I disagree with your assessment of today's AH. If you look at how Billy plays today vs. the Billy of 2004 (as in Way of the Puck), his defense is better today, and his offense way better. And Billy was good enough to be top 3 or 4 back then.
Yes Danny was great at his best in 2003-2004. I hope he can get in shape (and his finger holds out) so he can play at his best level the next few years.
I don't think age is yet a factor for the "new Old Guard" of Billy, Danny, Ehab, and Davis. In AH, late 30's or early 40's is not yet old. When me, Jesse, Dub, Phil, and Robert were dominating, we were in our late 30's to early 40's. Yes, Tim came along and beat us all, but we still dominated the rest of the field until '93, when other Finalists came along (Keith and Andy). So I don't see age hurting the top players yet; Billy is playing better than he did in 2005, and way better than he did in 1995.
Mark
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| EShoukry
- 05 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 67
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I think trying to get a perspective on air hockey today based on one challenge match between Pedro and Billy is selling the rest of the world short on how air hockey has grown over the last decade.
There's no denying that Billy is playing great, but defensively there are players like myself and Danny who have stronger defenses and which has been the big difference over why he and I were in 9 and 10 finals over the last 10 years.
Pedro's match with Billy was an offensive shoot out and Pedro did not run into a defense that gave him trouble which explains why he doesn't think Americans have improved over the last decade. However, if you look at how Jose has fared against the top defenses (I mention Jose because he has stayed relatively active), I have beaten him 6 or 7 times since 2003 and I know Danny has as well. Jose also has a great offense like Pedro but was slowed down by a better defense.
I think if Pedro were to play Danny and myself, he will get a different feel of the improvements in the game--specifically around defense. I would be happy to play Pedro a match and get ready by mid-April.
Ehab
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| Pedro Otero
- 05 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 269
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Its interesting that Ehab joins this topic since he have IMO the best defense actually, and probably ever; i already mentioned it to Phil the days i stayed in houston and Phil agrees.
My match with Billy was a war between 2 great offenses, but the best one won? No, Billy have a best offense than me IMO; probably the difference was that i made best defense adjustments to his offense. Against you (and Danny too) i will have more troubles to score, but i probably will have less troubles in my defense. Finally, test my skills against many opponents and many different styles is my goal with my incoming trip.
The growth in the last decade is something to probe yet. Im a best player right now in my offense, but my deffense is still far from 15 years ago. Since the deffense is harder to improve than offense, im not sure if this means that we are better players now.
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| EShoukry
- 05 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 67
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Pedro -
I think most people will agree that the only person that has been able to beat me consistently in the last 10+ years has been Danny and that's because he brings a powerful offense with a strong defense to the game. In my opinion, that's what it takes to win consistently and that's what it will take to be able to beat the lineup that you are going to face in Houston.
In any event, I will leave the real talking for the table and look forward to our match.
Buenos suerte,
Ehab
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| Pedro Otero
- 06 Mar 2013
Total Posts: 269
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Well, the only person that has been able to beat me consistently in all my life has been Jose, and probably you will agree with that. Yes, i was retired from the sport for more than 1 decade and its a big advantage.
So, if you and Mark are right and next month i win all my matches, then i will beocme in the best player ever? If retired almost 11 years and with only 17 months of practice with a small group of players im still able to beat the improved players that keep playing all this time, logical says that im the best ever. Trust me, i dont feel like the best ever, even if i win.
Your reasoning predicted a easy victory for Billy over me. It fails. My reasoning predicted a close match and was right. It is not about who is the best, now or ever, it is about if the game level of master players really improved in the last decade or not. I posted several months ago that it is imposible and i still keep my opinion.
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| Pedro Otero
- 03 Nov 2013
Total Posts: 269
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8 months later...
In the last month tournament, i beated the top 3 finishers of the 2012 Nationals (Billy, Ehab and Tim) and i lost very close with Danny.
After my challenge with Billy in febraury, he posted a list of the best shots in the AH history where he considered my RWU my best shot. In the tournament, i was almost unable to use it due to table conditions, and i still found the way to be sucessful. Without that shot, im sure im not a best player now than 15 years ago. I mind, Pedro from 1998 wil beat me now easyly.
The airhockey reached it top and now we just see the best players becoming weak with the years... and i truly believe that im the best player now.
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| ajflanagan
- 03 Nov 2013
Total Posts: 509
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Pedro Otero said: 8 months later...
and i truly believe that im the best player now. |
LOL... I think Danny would disagree.
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- 03 Nov 2013
Total Posts: 658
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| I would beat you in a challenge match Pedro. I'd even bet you 500 dollars on it, even though i don't like to bet anymore and also doubt your money would be real. ;)
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| Pedro Otero
- 03 Nov 2013
Total Posts: 269
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marknizzi said: | I would beat you in a challenge match Pedro. I'd even bet you 500 dollars on it, even though i don't like to bet anymore and also doubt your money would be real. ;) |
If i take the bet Billy will say that im robbing you since you have 0% of chance to win :) Anyway, you are more than welcome to come to Venezuela to play and lost ;)
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- 03 Nov 2013
Total Posts: 658
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Bring your Amazonian Sasquatch monkey ass to Colorado to play me. I don't want to fly all the way down to Venezuela just to have you not show.
And sorry dude. I have seen you play, i don't think you'll beat me.
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| Davisl
- 03 Nov 2013
Total Posts: 168
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For setup game offense, I think the game has hit a plateau. Billy didn't introduce any new shots, he just worked tirelessly to become the best at most of the shots in the game and his defense and transition game improved vastly. When you are that sharp, you play with confidence, and it showed. But, Pedro has proven that all you need to do with the best RWU/RWO combo in the world is put the defense at a 50/50 proposition and play timely defense.
I'm not sure Ehab has the best defense, I've just seen too many 4-6 comebacks by Danny to give it to Ehab.
I feel the next evolution of the game is someone that completely masters a transition/volley offense combined with a Randy Lind attack. When Randy Lind hits it from side to side and hits a well-timed shot, I have absolutely no clue where the puck is going and just hope he misses. I played around with working on it, but don't have the desire to take it to that level any longer. If any youngster wants to be unstoppable, I would say develop this type of offense and a defense where any missed shot turns into a shot on goal the other way, that is where the game goes to the next level.
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| Pedro Otero
- 04 Nov 2013
Total Posts: 269
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Transition shots are not very accurate, not enough to beat a master level defense who will adjust very quickly: Just leaving the mallet in the center of your own goal will block most of the shots many times. Hit transition shots acurately goes beyond human limits.
Ehab have the best defense blocking, but he do not win as many posessions in transition like Danny. They both have poor offenses so their game is "defense based". Then Billy comes with a non-stopable attack and we all know what happened.
But please, i want see more people here recognizing the facts: Airhockey level do not growth in the last 15 years
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| fupersly
- 07 Nov 2013
Total Posts: 231
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I'm not going to delve into evaluating anyone's offense or defense (which is difficult to do in a completely objective manner, in my opinion), but I will say this:
Air Hockey may have plateaued (to a certain degree), but that does not mean that a major shift might not be on the horizon - with or without new blood, actually.
It did take new blood for this to happen with the switch from the "Old Guard" to the "New Guard" - Jesse was dominant, but the skill level of the next 5-6 top players seemed to be roughly equal and it became a matter of how the draw came together that created the interesting match-ups. Then Tim came along with the circle drift and the more aggressive/interfering defense and changed the entire landscape. Nobody saw that coming, so I don't think it's fair to say that it couldn't happen again.
Davis has a point - someone is going to have to make a significant leap in the level of execution, both on offense and defense, before we have a similar moment in the "New Old Guard" era (as coined by Mark Robbins). Until then, the number of highly skilled players will begin to compress at the top of the rankings/ratings with less and less room between one skill "tier" and the next.
Or not... I mean, what the heck do I know? :p
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| Mike C
- 07 Nov 2013
Total Posts: 459
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| I will say that there needs to be a revival or refocus of airhockey. There needs to be love and passion. Davis showed more passion than Ive seen from him in my short time in air hockey. Danny is the definition of passion. The younger players need to be able to express this passion to get to the next level. Little Smoky showed great passion that will help him to move up. He was on the table the whole weekend playing, learning and growing. Colin took his game to a new level this past year and he has clearly moved himself into the master level of player just outside the top 5. His Defense is awesome and intelligent with room for improvement. His offense continues to get better but still he has plenty of upside. Jacob has all the tools and power to be a great player. Great upside to his play also. There has to be more great up and coming players to carry the torch forward. For all you sitting on the plateau, watch out for the passionate players to push past you.
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