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| carolina phil
- 29 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 1084
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-----Original Message-----
From: jpa <reunion@sbcglobal.net>
To: usaa <usaa@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jul 2, 2003 1:59 pm
Subject: Carter Cup, Jim Bill Carter Remembered
The Carter Cup is named after Jim Bill Carter one of the original founders and players of the sport of AH. I knew him well.
Jim had worked and gone to UT in Austin and had returned home to Houston around 74 when I met him in the very, very beginning of AH--when I was but a wee lad. Ran into him at Damians right behind (back then) Birraporeti's on West Grey. We were all playing the long line of quarters that night. I noticed this new guy was controlling the table against some of the best, whipping up on one of our better players named Fernando, the local lean, tall "Indian" with hair draped to his waist which waved wildly around his head caressing the table when he charged a shot. Jim took him down. Then the stranger ,Jim, smashed Paul Quarles and beat Rolf Moore a game. This caught my eye.
Jim was an unforgettable figure. Very soft-spoken, laid back, denim-shirted, blue jeaned, turquoise necklace kind of guy. Either cowboy hat or longish hair below collar look--early 70's in Houston.
Most remarkable was his relaxed winning smile that truly disarmed you and made you know you were talking to a friendly, real, and down to earth guy. Downed his Dr. Peppers softdrinks five or six times a day. Worked as an electrician, till his boss saw him on TV playing AH at UH event with me in 75 when he should have been working. Lost that job. So what? There ain't no Carter Cup for Electricians now, is there?
Behind the relaxed smile was a deadly streak of Houston street-fighter. Jim was cool, but would turn on a dime to set your ass straight if you pushed him too hard or looked at his girl the wrong way ( I never did.) Women were always all over him, and he never tried, just took what the Table brought him. ...
Known for his natural flowing style; he had a knack at meeting your banks at the rail with his hard low top. Had likely the best forehands ever. Huge muscle on wrist bulged out much bigger than any human due to summers of carrying pails of mud up hills in Austin working in landscaping. He would cock that wrist and, out of nowhere, POW it was there!
I credit Jim with inventing and developing the Texas Cut Shot. Although a UH fellow named Randy used a cut shot for a month before, he did not himself really know what he was shooting, nor did we know what was up, and Randy quit soon. But Jim knew and he was winning all the weeklies and taking home several hundred dollars.
As we were buds, he took me aside one night after Dr. Peppers at Jack in the Box and said, "You know, I've got a shot that ALWAYS scores." You have to understand that in those days we had never seen the cut shot, so on defense you don't know WHY the puck is going in your goal every time Jim shot for a point. All you know is that you see him shoot and in a blink it scores. Made no sense to us back then. He went on to explain it.
For the next month, I practiced the cut relentlessly with my own idea of whipping it out of the goal and cutting it on the serve.
Jim Carter also was the very first to invent the string or band on the mallet. He used an elastic tie from his long hair pony tail.
Jim also designed the first player made Air Hockey T shirts. Their modern wavy lettering still looks great today. His artistic talent also came through in that he bought and remodeled the Keller Estate House on Heights street around 11th or so. He later sold this home and moved back to Austin around 1980, with big bucks and fell in with the local jet setters there for awhile.
Jim was a weeklies player. There were no long matches back then. No long tournaments either. Everything was short and sweet. Two out of threes. In this world of quick ah, who was better than the great Jim Bill Carter? Here he could showcase his talent, his art, his creativity. He combined precision with a skater's grace that very few ah players could compete with. No breaking a big sweat for smooth-flowing Jim Bill. A smile across his lips, a forehand in your goal, all the same for Jim. You can still see him in a 1975 video talking and doing the Jim thing.
When the sport in 1978 took a sudden turn toward the hell hole of raw power, endurance, and marathon matches, featuring gladiators strutting their machismo, the great Jim Bill Carter slipped into the twilight.
I still see his forehand flexing, his tiger-like glide on the table, his backhand/forehand double hits, followed by that smooth cut shot, and then that smile inverted into a glare of triumph. He owned the short game.
We went to New York together for the 1975 Brunswick/Arrora National AH tournament, me as the regional champ and Jim as the Head Player Ref. There we met Mark and others for the first time. There Jim and I fought for and established many of the rules that you players play by today. Jim got along well with the officials and players at that event, created some trust and respect, brought some team-spirit to a sport in need of it. He bridged the gaps that kept players apart back then.
It is fitting that an event like the Carter Cup, which features teams of AH players playing together against other teams in short one-on-one sets, be named after Jim Bill Carter.
If he knew, he would flash that smile, flush with modesty, and be very pleased that he was remembered.
Phil Arnold
July, 2003
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| Q
- 30 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 497
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| Tim discussed this in his speech at Vegas. It'd be great to see this 4v4 challenge start again. Have there been any updates on the whereabouts/handing over of the Carter Cup?
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| TWeissman
- 30 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 210
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The original Carter Cup that Don and I paid for has apparently been lost.
It's a shame because the cup had the names of all Cup champions engraved on it.
In any case, we will be getting a new cup and moving forward the teams who are champions will not be able to take it home.
We are looking for two teams to vie for the first New and Improved Carter Cup championship.
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| Theon
- 30 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 49
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This type of format is probably the most fun to play air hockey. I suggest for those who have not to try it. I remember some great times with Wil, Billy, Mark and others including a 5 1/2 hour marthon that went down to a tie breaker. Billy even brought a date which was their 1st or 2nd date to an Carter Cup style event. I he knew she was a keeper after that.
Theon
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| ajflanagan
- 30 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 509
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The cup is lost? I doubt that. In hiding maybe. I have seen it with my own 2 eyes within the last... err decade or so. Actually, the last time I saw the cup, it was proudly displayed at Danny's apartment before he got married. I have no clue where it went from there. I do know that if it happens to be in Danny's garage, I'm not sure if HE even knows it's in there ;)
Can someone give us a rundown on the history of the Carter Cup teams? I want to say the current cup holders are Danny, Ehab, Jimmy and... Owen? Is that correct? I believe Tony Morris was part of a team that took part in one of the last challenges. I assume Tim, Don and Billy were teamed up... who was the fourth? What were some other teams?
What exactly is the format of the challenge?
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| stubbs7
- 31 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 582
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ajflanagan said:
Can someone give us a rundown the history of the Carter Cup teams? I want to say the current cup holders are Danny, Ehab, Jimmy and... Owen? Is that correct? I believe Tony Morris was part of a team that took part in one of the last challenges. I assume Tim, Don and Billy were teamed up... who was the fourth? What were some other teams?
What exactly is the format of the challenge?
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Here's what I remember of the Carter Cup. I would like to caveat this and say that I could be misremembering a lot of the information. Hopefully Tim, Don, Wil, Danny, Ehab, Nizzi etc. could join in this discussion and fill in the holes and correct any errors.
The Carter Cup started around 1993 and is a 4-man team competition. The first champions were the Fab 4, consisting of Don James, Owen Geraldo, Edward Almeda, and Justin Oistad. The Fab 4 defeated a few teams in their defense of the cup. I believe that they defeated the Green Wolverines, a team of Tim Weissman, Robert Hernandez, Max Silverstein and Tom Baldus in one of their matches. During this match the term "Wolf Slayer" was coined for an off-speed straight shot to the left-side of the goal because the Fab 4, who all had excellent off-speeds, destroyed the Green Wolverines with that shot.
The Fab 4 eventually disbanded as a team and the Cup was up for grabs. In 1996 the team God Complex was formed of Tim Weissman, Don James, Owen Geraldo, and me. God Complex held the Cup for a few years, defeating 4 teams along the way. One of the challenging teams consistent of Danny Hynes, Ehab Shoukry, Wil Upchurch and Scott Morgan. God Complex relinquished the Cup after 3 years of holding it, never losing a match. As a personal note, I never lost a match in the Carter Cup format and competed against Danny, Jimmy, Wil and Brian to name a few. :)
The current champions are Ehab Shoukry, Danny Hynes, Jimmy Heilander, and Jose Mora. I don't think a Carter Cup match has been played in over a decade.
The Carter Cup format is mainly round robin except that the defending team gets to decide the order of the matches and the matchups (to a small degree). There are 3 rounds of singles and 2 rounds of doubles. Ties are possible in the singles format (4 games are played. 2-2 is a tie worth 1/2 point for the team and 3-1 and 4-0 is a win and worth 1 point for the team). Ties are not possible in the doubles format which is 3 of 5 and are worth 1 point for the team. I think that Don James has the official rules. I'll see if I can get him to post them.
It was a very fun! It would be nice to see it make a comeback.
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| Juggernaut
- 31 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 121
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stubbs7 said:
Here's what I remember of the Carter Cup. I would like to caveat this and say that I could be misremembering a lot of the information. Hopefully Tim, Don, Wil, Danny, Ehab, Nizzi etc. could join in this discussion and fill in the holes and correct any errors.
The Carter Cup started around 1993 and is a 4-man team competition. The first champions were the Fab 4, consisting of Don James, Owen Geraldo, Edward Almeda, and Justin Oistad. The Fab 4 defeated a few teams in their defense of the cup. I believe that they defeated the Green Wolverines, a team of Tim Weissman, Robert Hernandez, Max Silverstein and Tom Baldus in one of their matches. During this match the term "Wolf Slayer" was coined for an off-speed straight shot to the left-side of the goal because the Fab 4, who all had excellent off-speeds, destroyed the Green Wolverines with that shot.
The Fab 4 eventually disbanded as a team and the Cup was up for grabs. In 1996 the team God Complex was formed of Tim Weissman, Don James, Owen Geraldo, and me. God Complex held the Cup for a few years, defeating 4 teams along the way. One of the challenging teams consistent of Danny Hynes, Ehab Shoukry, Wil Upchurch and Scott Morgan. God Complex relinquished the Cup after 3 years of holding it, never losing a match. As a personal note, I never lost a match in the Carter Cup format and competed against Danny, Jimmy, Wil and Brian to name a few. :)
The current champions are Ehab Shoukry, Danny Hynes, Jimmy Heilander, and Jose Mora. I don't think a Carter Cup match has been played in over a decade.
The Carter Cup format is mainly round robin except that the defending team gets to decide the order of the matches and the matchups (to a small degree). There are 3 rounds of singles and 2 rounds of doubles. Ties are possible in the singles format (4 games are played. 2-2 is a tie worth 1/2 point for the team and 3-1 and 4-0 is a win and worth 1 point for the team). Ties are not possible in the doubles format which is 3 of 5 and are worth 1 point for the team. I think that Don James has the official rules. I'll see if I can get him to post them.
It was a very fun! It would be nice to see it make a comeback.
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I was the referee of the first ever Carter Cup, which is as Billy described above except it was Anton Mawhood, not Robert Hernandez, who played with Tim, Max, and Tom. I could never forget Anton's intensity on the table, and he was always my favorite of the Wolverines. The match was intense but also very fun, with the Fab 4 coming out on top by utilizing a true team spirit and strategy throughout the match.
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| Juggernaut
- 31 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 121
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Tim did play on a team with Robert Hernandez, the Four Hands of Texas, against my team, the GQ Continuum (Ehab, Danny, Scot Morgan). Tim was a last-minute "surprise" addition to the team, which otherwise was composed of Robert, Phil, and August. The Spring 1997 Table Talk referred to this match, which we won 10.5 to 9, as "the most exciting, hard-fought and lengthy Carter Cup Team World Championships to date." The match turned on Scot Morgan's surprise singles victory over Robert Hernandez, and I remember Tim beating me in Jordanesque style while suffering from 100-degree fever. I think Tim and I have participated in more Carter Cups than any other player (3 each as players, IIRC, and one more for me as Head Ref).
God Complex beat GQC for the Cup in either late 1997 or early 1998.
I also played on a team that lost a challenge to the Fab 4, Robbins' Merry Men, consisting of Mark (captain), me, and Scot and Gary Morgan.
I think, and always have, that one problem with the Carter Cup is that the teams are too top heavy. We already have a lot of winner-take-all competitions in air hockey, and when you get teams like GC or the current champs who will take them on? It's an all-day affair and can take up multiple days of preparation, strategy, and the like. So you're less likely to get challenges, and close to 100% unlikely to get challenges from outside the city/region in which the Cup resides.
Therefore I'd like to see the Cup relaunched as a team format rather than a Cup competition, or else promote it as a tournament in its own right each year (either tacked onto a Nationals or a 2-3 day event in its own right). We simply don't have the player base or reward system in place to encourage much Carter Cup play, but it's a very exciting, rewarding, and engaging format in which to compete at air hockey, so I'd like to see it available to more people.
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| Juggernaut
- 31 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 121
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This article captures the drama of Carter Cup competition, and explains how it works. (Posting without permission, hopefully the author and owner of Spring 1997 Table Talk won't be miffed. I also edited one paragraph to make the article more dramatic. :) )
* * * * * * *
On January 4th in Houston, Texas, team, GQ Continuum (consisting of Wil Upchurch - team captain, Scot Morgan, Ehab Shoukry and Danny Hynes) defeated the Four Hands of Texas (Robert Hernandez- team captain, Tim Weissman, Phil Arnold and August Parra) 10 and 1/2 points to 9. Itwas the most exciting, hard-fought and lengthy Carter Cup Team World Championships to date . This is the type of competition which was conceived of when the Carter Cup was invented. In dramatic fashion, it wasn't until the last possible match of the competition that the winner was determined.
The first match of the day pitted Ehab Shoukry vs. August Parra. It was no contest as Ehab swiftly won 3 games straight giving his team a 1-0 lead. Next, Danny Hynes faced off with 2-time National Champion Robert Hernandez. With both players using fast-paced games and low-top mallets the competition was fierce. The result was a 2 games to 2 tie, giving GQ Continuum a 1.5 to .5 advantage.
The third singles set was quite surprising. Tim Weissman knocked mallets with rival Wil Upchurch. In recent events they have generally gone the proverbial 15 rounds with Tim eking out victory. Here the story was different as Weissman took control early and won 3 games in a row, thus making the point count 1.5 to 1.5.
Phil Arnold met Scot Morgan in the final set of Singles A. Impressive in spite of his lack of practice, Arnold handled Morgan 3 games to I . With this surprise the point count was 2.5 to 1.5 in favor of the Four Hands of Texas, and the sun seemed to be shining on the current Carter Cup champs.
Yet, this luck would not last. In the first set of doubles, Ehab and Danny met Robert and Phil. R & P quickly took control, going up 2 games to O. With victory seeming to be assured, they loosening their grip ever so slightly. It was enough to let E & D stop their choking and roar back with 3 straight games. Stunned and silent, the Four Hands of Texas went into the next match with focused determination.
Tim and August led the charge to recapture a lead when they faced Wil and Scot. Here again the set count ended 3 to 2 games, but it was the Four Hands of Texas who took the final point.
Now focused themselves, Wil and Scot met Robert and Phil. Still shell-shocked from their previous match, Robert and Phil were sunk 3 games to 1, thus equaling the Carter Cup point count 3.5 to 3.5.
In the final set of Doubles A, Tim and August looked to administer vengeance upon Ehab and Danny. With Weissman in a zone, at times like the fortress of solitude, the set was over 3 games to 1 in short order. Once again, the Four Hands of Texas gained the lead 4.5 to 3.5.
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| Juggernaut
- 31 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 121
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The first match of Singles B was Ehab against Robert. In another valiant effort, Robert fought from behind to acquire a 2 games to 2 tie. Phil would not be so lucky when he faced Hynes in the next set. Danny scored on Phil as easy as a hot knife cuts butter, and thus quickly took a 3 games to 0 victory. After these two matches, the count was even once more at 5 to 5.
The next two matches pitted Wil vs. August and then Scot vs. Tim. August almost sneaked a 2 game tie with Wil, but instead went down 3 games to 1. Tim took care of Scot in 3 straight. Once again the count was even, now 6 to 6, but the difference in this case was that GQ Continuum had finally won a section, taking Singles B 2.5 to 1.5.
Doubles B was a similar story to Doubles A. Both teams took 2 points in the section and once again the Four Hands of Texas squandered a lead. First, Robert and August defeated Scot and Danny 3 games to 2. Next, Tim and Phil lost to Wil and Ehab after holding a 2 to 0 lead. The loss was especially bitter for Arnold who had been involved in the previous loss. Wil and Ehab must have been butter, because they were on a roll, taking the next set against Robert and August 3 to O. In the final doubles set, Tim and Phil played Scot and Danny. A loss would put the Four Hands in a really tough position going into the final section of singles. With that in mind, Tim and Phil willed themselves to a 3 to 2 victory, equaling the point count at 8.
The Four Hands only needed 2 points in this final section to win the Cup. GQ needed 2.5 points since a tie would go to the current champs. In the first set, Tim faced Ehab and lost the first game. On paper, this was a match the Four Hands had counted on Tim to win. With fierce determination, Weissman won the next 3 games and took the first of the needed two points. All the Four Hands had to do in the next three sets was win one or tie two.
August played Danny next and lost 3 games to 1. Then Arnold fell to Upchurch 3 games straight. This put GQ up 10 points to 9 and placed all the pressure of winning upon Morgan and Hernandez. All Morgan needed to do was win 2 games before Hernandez could take 3. The Four Hands liked their chances, all the money riding on a 2-time National Champion who is considered one of the all-time greats, against an underdog who had never even finished a Master. Like a movie script, Morgan won two games straight, becoming the biggest hero in Carter Cup history and making a name for himself in the sport. And kudos are truly owed to Scot Morgan, a vastly calm and focused player who proved he can compete with the greats.
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| carolina phil
- 01 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 1084
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Wil's fine account omitted the following about how the Fourhands won the Cup. I quote Tim W's:
The third match brought the first controversy to the Cup. A match was set between the Fab 4 and the Texas Fourhands - originally Phil Arnold-Captain, Robert Hernandez, Albert Ortiz and August Parra to be played at Goodies, a pool hall in Northwest Houston. However, 2 days before the event, Albert Ortiz found out he would not be able to make the match. The Fourhands asked if the Fab 4 would agree to let them replace Albert Ortiz. They reluctantly agreed, wanting to compete more than see the competition postponed. The replacement was myself, Tim Weissman, currently at the peak of my AH performance level. The Texas Fourhands ended up winning the Cup against a frustrated and angry Fab 4 team, complaining that they would have practiced more if they knew the team was going to be different.
The Texas Fourhands lost the very next Carter Cup match to GQ Continuum (Wil Upchurch-Captain, Danny Hynes, Ehab Shoukry and Scot Morgan). This was the most closely fought Cup in history, and the Champs went down 10.5 to 9.
Juggernaut said: Tim did play on a team with Robert Hernandez, the Four Hands of Texas, against my team, the GQ Continuum (Ehab, Danny, Scot Morgan). Tim was a last-minute "surprise" addition to the team, which otherwise was composed of Robert, Phil, and August. The Spring 1997 Table Talk referred to this match, which we won 10.5 to 9, as "the most exciting, hard-fought and lengthy Carter Cup Team World Championships to date." The match turned on Scot Morgan's surprise singles victory over Robert Hernandez, and I remember Tim beating me in Jordanesque style while suffering from 100-degree fever. I think Tim and I have participated in more Carter Cups than any other player (3 each as players, IIRC, and one more for me as Head Ref).
God Complex beat GQC for the Cup in either late 1997 or early 1998.
I also played on a team that lost a challenge to the Fab 4, Robbins' Merry Men, consisting of Mark (captain), me, and Scot and Gary Morgan.
I think, and always have, that one problem with the Carter Cup is that the teams are too top heavy. We already have a lot of winner-take-all competitions in air hockey, and when you get teams like GC or the current champs who will take them on? It's an all-day affair and can take up multiple days of preparation, strategy, and the like. So you're less likely to get challenges, and close to 100% unlikely to get challenges from outside the city/region in which the Cup resides.
Therefore I'd like to see the Cup relaunched as a team format rather than a Cup competition, or else promote it as a tournament in its own right each year (either tacked onto a Nationals or a 2-3 day event in its own right). We simply don't have the player base or reward system in place to encourage much Carter Cup play, but it's a very exciting, rewarding, and engaging format in which to compete at air hockey, so I'd like to see it available to more people. |
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| tableman
- 02 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 690
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Juggernaut said:
I also played on a team that lost a challenge to the Fab 4, Robbins' Merry Men, consisting of Mark (captain), me, and Scot and Gary Morgan.
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Sheesh, I have no memory of that... when and where did we play?
Mark
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| TWeissman
- 02 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 210
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Lol Mark...
It was a crush job by the Fab 4 over your team. No wonder you have repressed the memory.
You guys came to Houston. I believe it was in 1993. You played at a batting cage complex in Northwest Houston.
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| Juggernaut
- 02 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 121
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tableman said: Juggernaut said:
I also played on a team that lost a challenge to the Fab 4, Robbins' Merry Men, consisting of Mark (captain), me, and Scot and Gary Morgan.
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Sheesh, I have no memory of that... when and where did we play?
Mark
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Yeah, you really weren't into it, but you did it for us youngsters. ;) We even forced you to be team captain. I'm almost certain that was the trip you passed me Living Buddha, Living Christ between cars while we were speeding up I-45 back to Fort Worth. I also think it was really early in the year, maybe even on New Years Day! It was a Sunday, and I remember watching the Cowboys-Giants game where Emmitt Smith ran all over the Giants with a dislocated shoulder. So that would put the match on Jan. 2, 1994.
Wil
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| tableman
- 03 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 690
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Juggernaut said: tableman said: Juggernaut said:
Yeah, you really weren't into it, but you did it for us youngsters. ;) We even forced you to be team captain. I'm almost certain that was the trip you passed me Living Buddha, Living Christ between cars while we were speeding up I-45 back to Fort Worth. I also think it was really early in the year, maybe even on New Years Day! It was a Sunday, and I remember watching the Cowboys-Giants game where Emmitt Smith ran all over the Giants with a dislocated shoulder. So that would put the match on Jan. 2, 1994.
Wil |
Do you mean "Buddha & Jesus: Conversations" by Carrin Dunne?
At that time I had just separated from Dynamo due to conflicts over several issues, so I was under stress. THAT must be why we lost.
Mark |
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| carolina phil
- 03 Sep 2012
Total Posts: 1084
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Hey, I passed that book by my teacher Dr. C. Dunne at Rice to you, Mark. And you passed it from car to car like it was an illegal substance? Well, then, what is sound of one book passing between two?
Phil
Do you mean "Buddha & Jesus: Conversations" by Carrin Dunne?
At that time I had just separated from Dynamo due to conflicts over several issues, so I was under stress. THAT must be why we lost.
Mark |
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Forums Home / Tournaments and Challenges / Jim Bill Carter--Carter Cup Challenge
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