| DRAGO
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 46
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I have recovered my censored posts and as promised will edit them to an "acceptable" level. These forums need to remain an open area for discussion popular and UNPOPULAR. When forum posting's question the integrity of the leaders and organizations within our sport, we can't have a member of these organizations deciding whats OK for public consumption.
Even though I am re-hashing some old issues I think there is some important stuff in here that deserves to be considered.
The first re-post is being resubmitted in its original wording. It was the final two paragraphs in a response about Otearos seeding questions. PD has since posted a question on specifically where Pedro should be seeded and I would say on PD's list the number is 10. A lot of people have said 12 or 13 which although I do not agree with is certainly better than the 20+ seed the "system" would place him at.
After reading a private E from Travis, I think I see where the confusion is, Travis thought I was making some sort of accustation while in fact all I was stating was confirmed points.
The second post was the infamous "flyboy" post, in response to comments by Mr. Flanigan. Apparently this post was censored because I called Mr. Flanigan a name questioning his intelligence. I will no longer call Mr. Flanigan any names, instead I will simply refer to him by the definition of his self-imposed call sign. For the man "...whose stupidity and/or ineptitude exceeds the descriptive potential of both the terms ass and clown in isolation, and in so doing demands to be referred to as the conjugate of the two" to try and tell me what will "fly" now is absurd. I last was in charge of anything as VP of the USAA in the early 90s, and I would put our accomplishments in that short two year period up against any administration since. The man "...whose stupidity and/or ineptitude exceeds the descriptive potential of both the terms ass and clown in isolation, and in so doing demands to be referred to as the conjugate of the two" and his crew have been in charge for over a decade now so I don't need the condescending attitude.
Travis didn't like my use of the words "whore", "slut" or "prostitute" either. First of all are these really the kind of words that require censoring? I wasn't using them to refer to any specific person that ayone knows, and furthermore using the words is certainly more sensitive to these kids, than forcing them to actually be in the same room as the females in question.
Without further ado: The lost posts...
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| DRAGO
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 46
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travis said: Again, personal attack.
"He claimed in another post he had never lost to an American, some ridiculous record he quoted. But you are right Nizzi, I did take him down (I think I was the only player besides Jose of course to beat him during their "run".)
Heck he lied about beating Jose a challenge match. He lied to all the Illinois players who sent him money. What's one more thing to lie about?"
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Travis,
How is anything I said above a personal attack? I am not claiming Pedro "lied", this is a confirmed fact!
The only "personal attack" here is my alluded to questioning of the integrity of USAA, since they never gave Pedro any disciplinary sanctions. I don't think that could be considered a "personal attack" on a whole organization (of which I myself was a Senior member at the time).
---The people who were not around when this happen need to know the facts on this issue. This is not a conspiracy theory. Pedro falsy reported defeating Jose in a match that never happened in order to influence seeds at the nationals. For this reason I have re-posted this message
---DJ
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| DRAGO
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 46
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ac said:
There's not even a definition of what an ultra pro is written down anywhere. That term is not something the USAA recognizes.
DJ said:
Simply not true! 100% inaccurate. The USAA does recognize Ultra Pro and it should be written down. Before you lecture any of us I suggest you get your facts straight
ac said:
So, you cannot subjectively give players erroneous classifications based on your own perceptions and expect a fair system to be the result. We are aiming to fill a 128 player chart this year. We are well on our way with 70 registered players. I am confident you have never seen half of them play and the other half you have not seen play in the last 12 months. You have NO basis for subjectively seeding anything.
DJ said:
Who said anything about 128 players? I am not proposing to examine the seeds of every waitress, 7 year old, and prostitute you pull off the street. I am suggesting the top 32 seeds need to be examined and the "Last & Largest" rule should be implemented on Pedro and anyone else that will cause an unfair randomness effecting all seeded players in the entire tournament. I have seen about every player in the top 50 play within the last year and am supremly qualified to judge skill levels.
ac said:
The fact is, nobody here has a clue where Pedro should be seeded...
[EDIT] "One whose stupidity and/or ineptitude exceeds the descriptive potential of both the terms ass and clown in isolation, and in so doing demands to be referred to as the conjugate of the two", No it's not true at all. As my main man Niz pointed out, most of the players here have an exact idea of where Pedro should be seeded. Depending on who plays it's somewhere between 7-13. Not in the 20's for sure. That is a fact.
(cont)
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| DRAGO
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 46
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ac said:
...[this] will not fly anymore...
DJ said:
Really, [EDIT] "One whose stupidity and/or ineptitude exceeds the descriptive potential of both the terms ass and clown in isolation, and in so doing demands to be referred to as the conjugate of the two"
What will "fly"?
Will two "World Championships" in less than two months "fly"?
Will no significant influx of talent in a decade "fly"?
Will having members of "promotional teams" being in charge of the content of public forums and then censoring any opinions which are critical of the very "promtional teams" they are a member of "fly"? - OK, I added this one
Will running a tournament like a dictator under "my tournament, my rules" "fly"?
Will giving a mentor award to a player who says "strategy doesn't matter" and has no students succeed in over a decade over a player who has trained the best two new players in our sport in less than two years "fly"?
Will giving a sportsmanship award (named after one of the most notorious bad sports the sport has ever seen) to the one man in the tournament who tried valiantly to start a fist fight during the junior event "fly"?
Will marketing the "sport" to "kids" while at the same time having sluts and whores with their tits hanging out pass around free shots of booze ON THE TOURNAMENT FLOOR "fly"?
Will those same whores and the "sporty" abundance of alcohol prevent the very kids we are "marketing" to (not to mention Rehabs girlfriend), from walking through or watching matches from the central tournament pit "fly"?
Will entry fees continuing to increase, while at the same time supposed cash sponsorships increases, while at the same time payouts are at an all-time low, without any accountability "fly"?
---DJ
"flyboy"
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| travis
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 530
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DRAGO said:
If you don't like the way a tournament is run, then you have the option to not participate in it.
Under the same premise, if you don't like the way these forums are run, you also have the option to not participate in them, either.
It's a shame, really - if I sift through all of the crudeness, hyperbole, and lack of tact, I can almost make out some good points in there. Almost.
Travis Luscombe
AirHockeyWorld.com Webmaster
http://twitter.com/air_hockey
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| goran
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 428
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What is the definition of "ultra pro" so we can write it down. Under the definition, which of the following players are not ultrapros...
Billy
Danny
Ehab
Davis
Jose
Will
Nizzi
Brian
Tim
Fletcher
Anthony
Jimmy
q
Travis
Pedro
Jesse
Andy
Syed
August
George
Pete
Goran
Albert
Nick
Joe
Robbins
Ramiro
Evan
Javier
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- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 658
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First off, thank the good lord we got a guy like Travis that sets up this site, and maintains it. We should all be thankful for him and his hard work, and help him out whenever and however we can.
Secondly, I like Don, and his posts as well.....even when they crack on me.
I think we need to go along with the idea of a room on this forums where people can let loose, maybe special membership to it would be a good idea though, so a person can't complain that they didn't know what they were getting into when they start getting bashed. I'd like this room to be dedicated to Don. I will be one of the first to join.
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| Laz
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 79
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I like the idea to only be visible if you log in and not to the general public. I'm also with Mark in thanking Travis for his time and energy for this site. I discovered a lot of the things he has added a few months back like entering in matches and we are very lucky to have him and his dedication. I've led "outside"people to the site and they also like it and have kept track of my moving rating through this site.
Lazaro
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| DRAGO
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 46
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goran said: What is the definition of "ultra pro" so we can write it down. Under the definition, which of the following players are not ultrapros...
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Definition is simple. Ultra-Pro is the classification of Air Hockey skill above Pro. Ultra-Pro is the highest classification the USAA recognizes. "Master" is an honorary title bestowed by the USAA upon the current top ten players in their rankings (it is neither a classification or representation of skill).
This is not a cop-out. We rate Pros, Experts, Amatuers, etc. by the same subjective standards and there never seems to be a beef there.
From Goran's list Billy, Danny, Rehab, PD, Jose, Wil, Nizzi, Tim, Anthony, Wil, Jimmy, and Pedro are all Ultra-Pros.
Debabatle group includes Brain, Travis, Q, Fletch - I would rate Brain and Travis as UPs, and 'lil Fletch and Q as Pros, but I wouldn't call you crazy for including all or none of these four on the UP list.
Everyone else is a Pro (at best), I think there are at least three names on there I'd call experts.
---DJ
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| goran
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 428
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Thanks Don, glad we got that cleared up. So who decides on the skill level? Here is what the seed list would look like using the Rankings with L&L assuming all of Dons mentions are Ultra Pros.
1 Billy Stubbs U
2 Danny Hynes U
3 Ehab Shoukry U
4 Davis lee Huynh U
5 Keith Fletcher U
6 Mark Nizzi U
7 Brian Quezada U
8 Travis Luscombe U
8.5 Brian Accrocco U
11.5 Tim Weissman U
12.5 Jose Mora U
15.5 Anthony Marino U
19.5 Will Upchurch U
47.5 Pedro Otero U
9 Dan Meyer P
10 Joe Cain P
10.5 Syed Rahman P
11 Lazaro Garcia P
11.5 Pete Lippincott P
12 Christopher Lee P
12.5 Ramiro Castano P
13 Dave Parmley P
14 August Parra P
14.5 Goran Mitic P
16 John Stucky P
16.5 Albert Ortiz P
17 Nick Geoffroy P
18 Mark Robbins P
19 Phil Arnold P
19.5 Evan Siegworth P
20.5 Mike Cummings P
20.5 Javier Pulido P
Here is with lil Fletch and Q as Pros...
1 Billy Stubbs U
2 Danny Hynes U
3 Ehab Shoukry U
4 Davis lee Huynh U
8.5 Brian Accrocco U
11.5 Tim Weissman U
12.5 Jose Mora U
15.5 Anthony Marino U
19.5 Will Upchurch U
47.5 Pedro Otero U
5 Keith Fletcher P
6 Mark Nizzi U
7 Brian Quezada P
8 Travis Luscombe U
9 Dan Meyer P
10 Joe Cain P
10.5 Syed Rahman P
11 Lazaro Garcia P
11.5 Pete Lippincott P
12 Christopher Lee P
12.5 Ramiro Castano P
13 Dave Parmley P
14 August Parra P
14.5 Goran Mitic P
16 John Stucky P
16.5 Albert Ortiz P
17 Nick Geoffroy P
18 Mark Robbins P
19 Phil Arnold P
19.5 Evan Siegworth P
20.5 Mike Cummings P
20.5 Javier Pulido P
Does everyone else agree with Dons classifications?
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| TWeissman
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 210
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Don...sorry...ehem...Flyboy,
I wish you would learn to make your points without offending people!
Goran,
I think the point is very simple. Ask yourself the same exact questions for every other skill level in AH. Why aren't folks asking these same questions for those skill levels?
Master is a title, every thing else is a skill level.
Travis,
It seems to me that if you are going to censor folks then it should be even-handed. Davis Lee posted a while back and called Don "fat and ugly." That is certainly in the same category as Don calling someone a "moron." Is it not?
Perhaps there should be a flame section where you can move posts that seem objectionable, and folks who want in there can see it.
Take care...
Tim
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| TWeissman
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 210
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Goran,
Also, to answer the question about who should be deciding skill level...we need (and I am working on) a measure for this. Hopefully, the first iteration of this measure will be ready by the Nationals for consideration and possible future implementation for assessing unknown players and helping local organizers with more fair promotions/demotions regarding skill level. I'm sure in a few more years, with enough data, the measure could be standarized to the ratings too, so they could both be used to determine the approximate skill level of a player.
See ya...
Tim
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| goran
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 428
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| Sounds good Tim, I'm all for improving what ever system we use. Hopefully we can get an official classification for all players so entry fees and seeding is done fairly. To me the rating system is the way to go if we can get everyone on board and improving the rules.
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| goran
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 428
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TWeissman said:
Goran,
I think the point is very simple. Ask yourself the same exact questions for every other skill level in AH. Why aren't folks asking these same questions for those skill levels?
Master is a title, every thing else is a skill level.
Take care...
Tim |
The classifications begginer (self explanatory) novice, and expert doesn't effect seeding as much as pro/ultra pro. IMO the pro category is assigned too loosely and I can agree ultra pro has become that way over the past 8 years. According to the ratings, ultra pro is over 1700. If we raised it to 1800 or 2000, it would be in line to what Don listed as ultra pros.
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| ajflanagan
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 509
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It is my understanding that all player skill classifications and/or titles were removed from official USAA existence until the Summer 2009 meeting when the title of "Master" was officially recognized as the current top 10 players in the ranking system.
If the player skill classifications and/or titles don't exist in any USAA written procedure, how can you justify (subjectively) handing out these titles? The way things were done in '82 simply don't apply here anymore.
If the players largely agree that we need classifications, then the only fair and objective way to do it is to draw lines in the sand within the ratings... once everyone agrees the ratings are fair, functional and accepted for more than provisional use by the USAA.
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| Mike C
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 459
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20.5 Mike Cummings P
Does everyone else agree with Dons classifications?
NO, I definitely disagree with this classification.
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| goran
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 428
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Mike C said:
20.5 Mike Cummings P
Does everyone else agree with Dons classifications?
NO, I definitely disagree with this classification.
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You don't believe your a pro?
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| Mike C
- 06 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 459
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goran said: Mike C said:
20.5 Mike Cummings P
Does everyone else agree with Dons classifications?
NO, I definitely disagree with this classification.
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You don't believe your a pro?
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I disagree with where I would be seeded from this list and others ahead of me that I am better than.
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| brain
- 07 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 578
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Point of order folks. This web site is property of Travis Luscombe. He pays for it. He developed it. It is his private property. It is out of kindness that he allows people to use it for free. This is not property of the USAA and its members. Therefore Travis may choose to censor whatever he deems appropriate. And if you don't like it, you may leave. Or go invest your own time and money to make your own web site and forums and then speak however you want.
Now if the USAA were to use some of its vast wealth and pay to have a web site developed and have "public forums", then that would be different. But even then, there is such a thing at etiquette and professionalism, and if we ever want the outside world to truly take us seriously, then perhaps we need to set an expectation internally of polite debates. We don't have to agree, but we can be courteous. If people cannot post and debate issues without saying nasty things about another person, then they are behaving like a child and should be treated accordingly. When one of my sons misbehaves, he gets grounded.
And I agree with Tim that discourtesy is discourtesy regardless of who posts it. And that's one thing I like about Travis a great deal. He is a very generous man and is always very fair in how he monitors and applies standards. If these were my forums, I'd be charging for memberships, and a good number of people would have been booted a long time ago.
I'm not sure if others here have reached a truth that I have, but I definitely see a clear link between productivity and civility. The most productive members of society achieve consistent results because of intense self discipline in both word and deed that is required to be a consistent achiever. When you focus your energies on achieving your goals, that focus tends to make you very confident and positive, even in situations of disagreement. On the flip side, those who lack civility in their dealings tend also to be the same people who accomplish very little and thus tend to be very insecure and enable themselves by being victoms or downplaying the contributions of the achievers.
In summary, whether you choose to be polite or rude, nobody is entitled to be here. This is not our house. It is Travis's. We are guests. And Travis only invites people to his house who behave like grown ups. 
If you haven't registered for the World Championships, well then get with it. www.airhockeyworldevents.com. Time is running out. Under 3 weeks. 
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| brain
- 07 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 578
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| And to Don specifically - it was good to see you tonight at the weekly. Diane and I loved the T-shirt. Sure would be nice to see you on the table. Although I'm not sure I'd classify you as an Ultra Pro. Well...maybe.
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| jasonstevens
- 07 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 176
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Here is a thought.....
Get rid of all titles and Classifications.
Unless you can PRECISELY put EVERYONE in a certain class then they are not accurate (which is what's there now).
Why do we REALLY have them and aside from seeding purposes what purpose do they really serve? Think about it.
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| travis
- 07 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 530
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TWeissman said: Travis,
It seems to me that if you are going to censor folks then it should be even-handed. Davis Lee posted a while back and called Don "fat and ugly." That is certainly in the same category as Don calling someone a "moron." Is it not?
Perhaps there should be a flame section where you can move posts that seem objectionable, and folks who want in there can see it. |
Tim, that's a good point, and I try to be as fair as possible. Obviously, I'm not going to catch everything. I think I will be creating a private section as suggested before.
Travis Luscombe
AirHockeyWorld.com Webmaster
http://twitter.com/air_hockey
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| ajflanagan
- 07 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 509
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jasonstevens said: Here is a thought.....
Get rid of all titles and Classifications.
Unless you can PRECISELY put EVERYONE in a certain class then they are not accurate (which is what's there now).
Why do we REALLY have them and aside from seeding purposes what purpose do they really serve? Think about it. |
Are my posts invisible? There ARE NO classifications recognized by the USAA other than the "title" of Master. They don't exist.
Event producers do still use the titles "pro a, pro b, expert, etc" when naming the various spinoff brackets, but the USAA does not formally recognize or define those titles or attempt to call them classifications.
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| jasonstevens
- 07 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 176
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ajflanagan said: jasonstevens said: Here is a thought.....
Get rid of all titles and Classifications.
Unless you can PRECISELY put EVERYONE in a certain class then they are not accurate (which is what's there now).
Why do we REALLY have them and aside from seeding purposes what purpose do they really serve? Think about it. |
Are my posts invisible? There ARE NO classifications recognized by the USAA other than the "title" of Master. They don't exist.
Event producers do still use the titles "pro a, pro b, expert, etc" when naming the various spinoff brackets, but the USAA does not formally recognize or define those titles or attempt to call them classifications. |
Lol, ok.
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| DRAGO
- 12 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 46
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Stop hijacking my thread! We were supposed to be talking about Rehabs girlfriend not being allowed in the pit, the theoretical Carter Cup match-up of the players Billy has mentored versus Laz Garcia and company, and who is/was a better sportsman: Tad Gibson or Bob Dubisson.
However, there are a couple of issues I wanted to quickly address. Goran had a long list of people and classifications and then was asking people if they agreed with "Don's classifications". Those were not my classifications. Half the people on the list Goran (not me) posted with "P"s next to their names should have "E"s next to their name if it was "Don's classifications".
Secondly, why the person "...whose stupidity and/or ineptitude exceeds the descriptive potential of both the terms ass and clown in isolation, and in so doing demands to be referred to as the conjugate of the two" says for a fact to the peacock that the USAA got rid of classifications is beyond me. USAA tournaments still use a classification based system to determine entry fee. Also, several USAA officers have discussed seeding Pedro with the "last/largest" rule. If there were no classifications, then obvious this rule would be impossible to apply.
---DJ
PS - Does You Nap really need 8 stickys for one tournament on the top these forums? The whole point in having a sticky is for convenience. When you gotta go through 8 to find the info you are looking for, it defeats the purpose. How many stickys did the Commish/Blowfish use for his world championships?
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| travis
- 12 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 530
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DRAGO said: | Also, several USAA officers have discussed seeding Pedro with the "last/largest" rule. If there were no classifications, then obvious this rule would be impossible to apply. |
Barring a USAA vote overturning the ratings system being used to seed the tournament, last/largest will not be used to seed this month's event.
| How many stickys did the Commish/Blowfish use for his world championships? |
That's a trick question. The answer is "none", because he didn't create any threads with the pertinent tournament information. I'd rather have too much information than not enough, personally.
Travis Luscombe
AirHockeyWorld.com Webmaster
http://twitter.com/air_hockey
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| ajflanagan
- 12 Jul 2012
Total Posts: 509
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A certain gentleman, who is neither of the two parts of the word, affectionately (not really) referred to as the name of a child's toy resembling a head made from a potato, not due to the fun and friendly nature of the toy, but rather his uncanny likeness to it said: | USAA tournaments still use a classification based system to determine entry fee. |
Tournament producers can and do use whatever criteria they see fit to determine the entry fee system. There is no standard USAA procedure... yet.
A certain gentleman, who is neither of the two parts of the word, affectionately (not really) referred to as the name of a child's toy resembling a head made from a potato, not due to the fun and friendly nature of the toy, but rather his uncanny likeness to it said: If there were no classifications, then obvious this rule would be impossible to apply.
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Correct, it is impossible to apply... fairly. That is why the system is currently being replaced.
You can hate on me, my friends, Travis, UNAP, Air Hockey World, the Mitic Ratings and whatever else makes you sleep better at night. You will still come to the tournament and be entertained. You're welcome.
Andrew
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| fupersly
- 02 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 231
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| The really loud person from California who usually makes the guy who looks like Mr. Potato Head angry and once had a feud with some other easily-angered guy that resulted in him earning a less-than-flattering nickname that everyone uses to this day just laughed his ass off at the last page of this thread.
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| jsbritton
- 02 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 421
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| no doubt.
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| airhockeyjedi
- 06 Aug 2012
Total Posts: 102
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DRAGO said: ac said:
There's not even a definition of what an ultra pro is written down anywhere. That term is not something the USAA recognizes.
DJ said:
Simply not true! 100% inaccurate. The USAA does recognize Ultra Pro and it should be written down. Before you lecture any of us I suggest you get your facts straight
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I was luck to find important historical references. I have Don Metzler's Secretary's notebook of the minutes of the meetings of the HAP Chapter of the USAA, June 17, 1990. Held at Denny's at I-10 & Wirt Rd, Houston, Texas. Under Old Business: "Ultra-Pro voted in as term". Also, mentioned that Anton Mawhood took the minutes of the last meeting. So the actual written definition, perhaps Anton still has.
Meetings were held once a month, typically at Denny's mentioned above. So the voted on definition should be in May 1990's minutes which Anton Mawhood took.
Eight members on the board present 06/17/1990 were: TC - President; Vince Schappell - VP; Don Bearden - Historian; Don Metzler - Secretary; Tim Weissman - Treasurer; Consultants - Shawn Ferris, Phil Arnold, and Patrice Nale.
Vince Schappell
2007-2009 USAA Treasurer
USAA Member since 1980
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